A public sector employee's point of view...
Discussion
Getragdogleg said:
I want the local council to sweep mud off the roads and gutters, tidy the hedges, suck the drains out and make sure litter is picked up.
I also want the roads resurfaced when they get damaged by frost and I want a good program of improvements designed to aid flow of traffic, I want affordable car parking near to work.
I want the police to operate a visual effective service that actually cuts crime down, I the courts to deal with these people effectivly so punishment is a punishment. I want the prisons to be dry and warm and provide food and training but to be a punishment.
I want public transport to be a viable alternative to cars, not just in London but all over the country, if it is to work it needs to be subsidised and run properly with times and frequency to suit the peak hours.
I want a health service that is efficient and has enough beds, doctors, nurses and surgeons, This service needs to be local, a good full hospital in every major town.
This is just for starters, at the moment we get none of the above yet we are paying for all the above many times over.
Gets my vote for post of the week.I also want the roads resurfaced when they get damaged by frost and I want a good program of improvements designed to aid flow of traffic, I want affordable car parking near to work.
I want the police to operate a visual effective service that actually cuts crime down, I the courts to deal with these people effectivly so punishment is a punishment. I want the prisons to be dry and warm and provide food and training but to be a punishment.
I want public transport to be a viable alternative to cars, not just in London but all over the country, if it is to work it needs to be subsidised and run properly with times and frequency to suit the peak hours.
I want a health service that is efficient and has enough beds, doctors, nurses and surgeons, This service needs to be local, a good full hospital in every major town.
This is just for starters, at the moment we get none of the above yet we are paying for all the above many times over.
smash said:
Didn't know where to post this but I feel strongly enough to do so because everything I've read so far seems largely one sided. I don't intend to respond to any replies and get into massive debates - this is just about giving my scenario and why I have chosen to strike - I'm not looking for sympathy.
It seems to me the government and the media have done well in promoting discrimination between the private and public sectors - this whole us and them thing. Fact is you and I go to work each day to carry out the job we were employed to do. We both get paid. We both get monthly deductions from that pay – NI, Income Tax and pension contributions. The only difference is my employer is the government (elected to best serve the needs of the people) and your employer is a private company (driven entirely by profit). I realise that taxation of the private sector “funds” the government – so yes a tiny, incey, wincey bit of your tax could be said to pay towards my wage indirectly (thank you) - but they’re the ones who’ve seen fit to employ people to help serve the nations needs (and collect those taxes) – you elected them. Why does this fact make people automatically assume they have the right to bang on about my pay and conditions? I may buy a product or service from the company you work for but would I feel justified in taking an “I pay your bloody wages” stance if I heard there were employees disgruntled with changes to pay and conditions in your workplace? It’s just very, very visible with the public sector. Even the chancellor said that “we need to negotiate a deal that is affordable for the tax payer” as if the public sector don’t pay tax and contribute out of their wages!! He’s deliberately reinforcing the public/private divide.
If your company takes out a long term contract with a client and mid way through the client wants to enforce a change against the original contract – let’s say they can no longer afford the original price they committed to cos they’ve had some bad times and haven’t managed their finances properly – what would you do? You’d say tough s
t! OK, you may try and renegotiate but if that fails and they refuse to pay you what do you do? You take them to court (at a cost to you) and (try to) get them to pay up.
I have a contract. And now the person I have the contract with is trying to renegotiate midterm (for all the reasons above) – but they’re the government, I can’t take them to court, what do I do? They will not negotiate. My only option is strike action (at a cost to me).
Are we all well paid and "gold plated" in the civil service? You decide. Let’s get into the real world shall we?
I have worked for HMRC (nee C&E) since 1986. I am an HO (Higher Officer). I lead a team of 12 staff. For added spice we deal with VAT liability queries from across the UK, the revenue risk implications of which can amount to millions.
I am 45. My salary is £30k – this has been frozen for the last 2 years. The absolute MAXIMUM salary increase I can expect over the next 2 years is 1%.
The extra cost of the pension reforms represent a 3% pay cut (I will end up having something like an extra £70 a month deducted toward pension).
My pension will no longer be based on final 3 years salary but on a career average. I now cannot take my pension until 67.
Mine is the only income in the household – my partner has had MS since 1999 (she receives around £60 per week as a benefit). Not looking for sympathy - it is relevant, this is how I live. fact.
At this point a few of you may be darting into my garage and saying hang on a minute, look at the exotica you’ve owned. Yep – can’t deny I’ve owned an enjoyed some stunning cars but I could only realise those dream cars as a result of losing my dad to stomach cancer in 2001 and frankly that cost was way too high.
“Yeah but you choose to join the civil service” – Yes, you’re right, I did and that choice was based on weighing up pluses and minuses. It just so happened that the salary was a bit of a minus but the pension was a bit of a plus.
So that is why I am sitting here at home writing this rather than being sat in work (writing this lol!).
Don’t get me wrong I’m not trying to preach to anyone – I’m just trying to put forward the view from the other side, actually I really shouldn’t say that, I’m just putting forward the view of a fellow worker whose employer is trying to have one over on them.
I have chosen to strike today. Thanks for reading.
Oh yes, a word about sick leave. I've read alot about civil servants taking the mickey with sick leave. I can only talk about my area - whilst it's true levels have been high there has been a huge drive from driector level downwards now for sometime to signifcantly reduce levels and it is working. If someone has more than 5 days or 3 instances of sick in any rolling 12 months our guidance requires managers to look at stage 1 formal trial proceedings. there are only 3 stages and the 3rd is basically out the door. There are occuational helth considerations for long term sick leave.
Finally, my work area has recently gone through the HMRC equivalent of LEAN (called pacesetter) and I can tell youthat coneptions of a comfortable, relaxed, well paid existence in HMRC are severely misplaced.
Here is an answer to a few of the points you rasied....from my perspective.It seems to me the government and the media have done well in promoting discrimination between the private and public sectors - this whole us and them thing. Fact is you and I go to work each day to carry out the job we were employed to do. We both get paid. We both get monthly deductions from that pay – NI, Income Tax and pension contributions. The only difference is my employer is the government (elected to best serve the needs of the people) and your employer is a private company (driven entirely by profit). I realise that taxation of the private sector “funds” the government – so yes a tiny, incey, wincey bit of your tax could be said to pay towards my wage indirectly (thank you) - but they’re the ones who’ve seen fit to employ people to help serve the nations needs (and collect those taxes) – you elected them. Why does this fact make people automatically assume they have the right to bang on about my pay and conditions? I may buy a product or service from the company you work for but would I feel justified in taking an “I pay your bloody wages” stance if I heard there were employees disgruntled with changes to pay and conditions in your workplace? It’s just very, very visible with the public sector. Even the chancellor said that “we need to negotiate a deal that is affordable for the tax payer” as if the public sector don’t pay tax and contribute out of their wages!! He’s deliberately reinforcing the public/private divide.
If your company takes out a long term contract with a client and mid way through the client wants to enforce a change against the original contract – let’s say they can no longer afford the original price they committed to cos they’ve had some bad times and haven’t managed their finances properly – what would you do? You’d say tough s
t! OK, you may try and renegotiate but if that fails and they refuse to pay you what do you do? You take them to court (at a cost to you) and (try to) get them to pay up.I have a contract. And now the person I have the contract with is trying to renegotiate midterm (for all the reasons above) – but they’re the government, I can’t take them to court, what do I do? They will not negotiate. My only option is strike action (at a cost to me).
Are we all well paid and "gold plated" in the civil service? You decide. Let’s get into the real world shall we?
I have worked for HMRC (nee C&E) since 1986. I am an HO (Higher Officer). I lead a team of 12 staff. For added spice we deal with VAT liability queries from across the UK, the revenue risk implications of which can amount to millions.
I am 45. My salary is £30k – this has been frozen for the last 2 years. The absolute MAXIMUM salary increase I can expect over the next 2 years is 1%.
The extra cost of the pension reforms represent a 3% pay cut (I will end up having something like an extra £70 a month deducted toward pension).
My pension will no longer be based on final 3 years salary but on a career average. I now cannot take my pension until 67.
Mine is the only income in the household – my partner has had MS since 1999 (she receives around £60 per week as a benefit). Not looking for sympathy - it is relevant, this is how I live. fact.
At this point a few of you may be darting into my garage and saying hang on a minute, look at the exotica you’ve owned. Yep – can’t deny I’ve owned an enjoyed some stunning cars but I could only realise those dream cars as a result of losing my dad to stomach cancer in 2001 and frankly that cost was way too high.
“Yeah but you choose to join the civil service” – Yes, you’re right, I did and that choice was based on weighing up pluses and minuses. It just so happened that the salary was a bit of a minus but the pension was a bit of a plus.
So that is why I am sitting here at home writing this rather than being sat in work (writing this lol!).
Don’t get me wrong I’m not trying to preach to anyone – I’m just trying to put forward the view from the other side, actually I really shouldn’t say that, I’m just putting forward the view of a fellow worker whose employer is trying to have one over on them.
I have chosen to strike today. Thanks for reading.
Oh yes, a word about sick leave. I've read alot about civil servants taking the mickey with sick leave. I can only talk about my area - whilst it's true levels have been high there has been a huge drive from driector level downwards now for sometime to signifcantly reduce levels and it is working. If someone has more than 5 days or 3 instances of sick in any rolling 12 months our guidance requires managers to look at stage 1 formal trial proceedings. there are only 3 stages and the 3rd is basically out the door. There are occuational helth considerations for long term sick leave.
Finally, my work area has recently gone through the HMRC equivalent of LEAN (called pacesetter) and I can tell youthat coneptions of a comfortable, relaxed, well paid existence in HMRC are severely misplaced.
1. Govt Propoganda: People who cant work out the realities for themselves will fall prey to this. The same practice was in place for 13 years. The borrowings of this country to fund benefits and extra job creation in the public sector for vote buying was rampant. All that was blamed on bankers in 2008-2009. I personally dont believe the previous idiots or the current lot. But this lot of idiots have managed to steady the ship, give us low intrest rates so that the entire credit foolish population dont go bust, keep businesses ticking over and people in jobs rather than out of it. Things could have been really bad...i mean really bad. Instead we are bouncing along at a flat rate of growth rather than a decline. So far so good.
2. Pensions: The employer contributions, the pension payout and the employee contributions are still favourable towards the public sector worker. All of this paid out of pvt sector taxes. The public say yes to it because we value the service you provide at a lower rate of pay and take a sense of responsibility to give you the best job security and pensions.... all conditions that are non existant in the private sector that funds you!!! The previous arrangements are unaffordable for the future. The govt has kept status quo for people within 10 yrs of retirement. Pay freezes and other deductions are not applied to low earning public sector workers. It is reasonable in my view when taking all of it under consideration and arriving at a balancing act for the next 25-30 yrs. You can argue that the pvt sector should contribute more in pensions etc...but for that the pvt sector should make high profits and have lower taxation pressures to divert profits into employee welfare. In the current profitability of small companies...its not going to happen. And small companies are the life blood of the nation.
3. Working culture: you say that for a few years now sick leave and absences etc are strictly monitored. Why was this not done from the beginning? Why is the same discipline not followed in all departments funded by taxation? When people complain of public sector workers...you need to understand that it is all of you combined as one unit who are funded out of taxation. And that unit is simply not efficient enough for the money that we spend. You might find it offensive personally...but look at all of the tax funded departments around you...wastage of our taxes is all over the shop. It is unacceptable.
4. Strike action: majority of the members abstained. We could argue democracy here...but the truth is that members dont want to vote against the union so they stayed away. Not all members are out there striking...like you ...they are taking a day off. So how exactly are the public work force protesting or making their voices heard? This is simply politics and majority of the people know it. The leaders of your unions are morons. Even a 16 yr old doing A level economics could argue points in public better than your reps who earn 100k a yr to represent you. Shame on you for keeping idiots at the top to represent your case.
5. Envy: one of the biggest arguments from the public sector worker is about how the top dogs in the pvt sector earn 50% payrises etc. Here is a lesson in economics. for £100 spent on bonuses, extra £13 is co.NI + £51 tax and NI. The top dog gets 49 out of 113 spent by the company. The rest goes to the treasury. And yet you complain about high earners? It just shows that people like you believe the propoganda rather than working out things for yourself and arriving at a conclusion!
Getragdogleg said:
I want public transport to be a viable alternative to cars, not just in London but all over the country, if it is to work it needs to be subsidised and run properly with times and frequency to suit the peak hours.
I agree with the second point.I'm not sure we can make it work in this country though, outside of major cities. We're probably better off scrapping the idea.
smash said:
Fact is you and I go to work each day to carry out the job we were employed to do. We both get paid. We both get monthly deductions from that pay – NI, Income Tax and pension contributions. The only difference is my employer is the government (elected to best serve the needs of the people) and your employer is a private company (driven entirely by profit).
And there is the rub my friend. Public sector services that are designed to "best serve the needs of the people" just don't work. The reason is in your statement - Private sector firms are there to make PROFIT. This only happens in two ways - you either have a monopoly (e.g HM Govt.) and can charge what you want, and therefore, no body gives a real st about COSTS because if you don't make enough money, you can just put your prices up. OR - you spend less money operating your business than you receive in income for whatever service/product you provide.The COST of Government/Public Services 'in real terms' as numerous chancellors like to state is a total f
king unknown!!! Yes we know how much they spend BUT what IS and SHOULD the real cost be? What would happen if somebody decided to make HMRC a PLC with a return on capital target of 10%? Within a year you would probably find the headcount would be drastically reduced, costs would be under much better control.... and WHY? Oh that's easy - there would be professional, competent people running the job who understand the concept of the evil capitalistic concept of profit and loss!
The NCB was a f
king money pit and Maggie Thatcher did the whole country a favour by putting Scargill and his Commie mates out of a job (I am from a West Yorkshire mining town and my step dad was a miner during the strike in 1984/85, so please don't make any silly comments about not knowing anything about hardship/ strikes etc.).British Leyland was no better along with all the former British industries that have died due to inept and incompetent management by polititians and sodding union shop stewards over the years.
The Government and all its 'public sector' service departments are nothing but one giant monopoly who just put the prices up every year and achieve their 'price increase' by increasing taxes and borrowing money they can't pay back.
Bunch of incompetent a
holes who think it's OK to screw around with peoples lives. Let's see these tossers take a paycut or sign an agreement that any income they receive in the five years following their leaving office be capped at their MP's leaving salary and the remainder go towards fixing the damage they did whilst they were there!! Any Takers??? No didn't think so. I read somewhere that Tony Blair was estimated to have received 20 Million quid in the first year after he left office....
!!!!! 
Edited by simer553 on Wednesday 30th November 12:16
OP you make me sick.
Come and live in the real world with the private sector!
I've worked for Public and Private in the past and I still don't get why public sector think they are 'entitled' to so much.
OP - Did your T&Cs when you signed them detail a guarenteed constant salary increase year on year?
OP - Did your T&Cs on your pension detail that future changes were or were not allowed to happen?
Come and live in the real world with the private sector!
I've worked for Public and Private in the past and I still don't get why public sector think they are 'entitled' to so much.
OP - Did your T&Cs when you signed them detail a guarenteed constant salary increase year on year?
OP - Did your T&Cs on your pension detail that future changes were or were not allowed to happen?
thinfourth2 said:
Tuscan Rat said:
I work in the Public sector and won't be on strike today !!
that must be terrible the only day you have to work this year and it is on a strike day you lefty scumbag who is paid a million pounds a day for sitting at a desk filling in formsYou make me sick
My wife and myself have no pension and can't truly afford to pay into a private pension for our retirement. Hopefully, like many in the same position, we will sell our house, down grade and hopefully have enough money to survice until we die.
I can't beleive that at this time when due the financial predicatment we are in you can't accept the terms put forward which means you will still get a generous pension when you retire compard to everyone else who will get sweet FA.
I can't beleive that at this time when due the financial predicatment we are in you can't accept the terms put forward which means you will still get a generous pension when you retire compard to everyone else who will get sweet FA.
Edited by Erijaso on Wednesday 30th November 12:34
null said:
Getragdogleg said:
I want public transport to be a viable alternative to cars, not just in London but all over the country, if it is to work it needs to be subsidised and run properly with times and frequency to suit the peak hours.
I agree with the second point.I'm not sure we can make it work in this country though, outside of major cities. We're probably better off scrapping the idea.
Having worked in both private and public sector I think it’s shame that the ‘them and us’ thing continues. I’ve been working since 1982 and have nearly always found that the vast majority of people just want to do their best, get on with things and get on with other people. You get the odd bad egg and the odd lazy git, but I still believe that those people are in the minority.
Anyway, unlike other recessions (in my lifetime) this one seems to be affecting everyone. In previous times, while some sections of society suffered, other prospered, but this time round everyone is having to bear the brunt. We really are – or at least should be – all in it together. Sadly, our politicians, employers, trade unions and media have not done a great job in convincing us of that. Even as a left-of-centre voter I can see that we just don’t have the money to fund everyone’s wish list – for at least the foreseeable future. We’ve all got to batten down the hatches, reduce our spending on luxuries that we can do without, and tough it out.
Anyway, unlike other recessions (in my lifetime) this one seems to be affecting everyone. In previous times, while some sections of society suffered, other prospered, but this time round everyone is having to bear the brunt. We really are – or at least should be – all in it together. Sadly, our politicians, employers, trade unions and media have not done a great job in convincing us of that. Even as a left-of-centre voter I can see that we just don’t have the money to fund everyone’s wish list – for at least the foreseeable future. We’ve all got to batten down the hatches, reduce our spending on luxuries that we can do without, and tough it out.
OP:
I've worked for the same Private sector company for the last 10 years.
In that time:
promised bonuses stopped completely
prmised payrises ground to a halt
I had 2 payrises (despite numerous 'promotions') (in 10 years)
Both payrises were low single figure % - less than infaltion at the time
The promised pension plan was shelved
The pension plan was changed so instead of contributing £60 a month I was contributing £240 just to maintain same level
Terms and conditions were changed numerous times
Holiday entitlement was cut by 5 days a year
I was made redundant.
Additionally, I dont trust the company to actually honour its pension commitiments when I retire.
I never took 'militant' strike action that affected people across the country.
Why do you feel you have the right to do so?
I've worked for the same Private sector company for the last 10 years.
In that time:
promised bonuses stopped completely
prmised payrises ground to a halt
I had 2 payrises (despite numerous 'promotions') (in 10 years)
Both payrises were low single figure % - less than infaltion at the time
The promised pension plan was shelved
The pension plan was changed so instead of contributing £60 a month I was contributing £240 just to maintain same level
Terms and conditions were changed numerous times
Holiday entitlement was cut by 5 days a year
I was made redundant.
Additionally, I dont trust the company to actually honour its pension commitiments when I retire.
I never took 'militant' strike action that affected people across the country.
Why do you feel you have the right to do so?
convert said:
Getragdogleg said:
I want the local council to sweep mud off the roads and gutters, tidy the hedges, suck the drains out and make sure litter is picked up.
I also want the roads resurfaced when they get damaged by frost and I want a good program of improvements designed to aid flow of traffic, I want affordable car parking near to work.
I want the police to operate a visual effective service that actually cuts crime down, I the courts to deal with these people effectivly so punishment is a punishment. I want the prisons to be dry and warm and provide food and training but to be a punishment.
I want public transport to be a viable alternative to cars, not just in London but all over the country, if it is to work it needs to be subsidised and run properly with times and frequency to suit the peak hours.
I want a health service that is efficient and has enough beds, doctors, nurses and surgeons, This service needs to be local, a good full hospital in every major town.
This is just for starters, at the moment we get none of the above yet we are paying for all the above many times over.
Gets my vote for post of the week.I also want the roads resurfaced when they get damaged by frost and I want a good program of improvements designed to aid flow of traffic, I want affordable car parking near to work.
I want the police to operate a visual effective service that actually cuts crime down, I the courts to deal with these people effectivly so punishment is a punishment. I want the prisons to be dry and warm and provide food and training but to be a punishment.
I want public transport to be a viable alternative to cars, not just in London but all over the country, if it is to work it needs to be subsidised and run properly with times and frequency to suit the peak hours.
I want a health service that is efficient and has enough beds, doctors, nurses and surgeons, This service needs to be local, a good full hospital in every major town.
This is just for starters, at the moment we get none of the above yet we are paying for all the above many times over.
Corsair7 said:
OP:
I've worked for the same Private sector company for the last 10 years.
In that time:
promised bonuses stopped completely
prmised payrises ground to a halt
I had 2 payrises (despite numerous 'promotions') (in 10 years)
Both payrises were low single figure % - less than infaltion at the time
The promised pension plan was shelved
The pension plan was changed so instead of contributing £60 a month I was contributing £240 just to maintain same level
Terms and conditions were changed numerous times
Holiday entitlement was cut by 5 days a year
I was made redundant.
Additionally, I dont trust the company to actually honour its pension commitiments when I retire.
I never took 'militant' strike action that affected people across the country.
Maybe you should have then. Just saying.I've worked for the same Private sector company for the last 10 years.
In that time:
promised bonuses stopped completely
prmised payrises ground to a halt
I had 2 payrises (despite numerous 'promotions') (in 10 years)
Both payrises were low single figure % - less than infaltion at the time
The promised pension plan was shelved
The pension plan was changed so instead of contributing £60 a month I was contributing £240 just to maintain same level
Terms and conditions were changed numerous times
Holiday entitlement was cut by 5 days a year
I was made redundant.
Additionally, I dont trust the company to actually honour its pension commitiments when I retire.
I never took 'militant' strike action that affected people across the country.
trashbat said:
Corsair7 said:
OP:
I've worked for the same Private sector company for the last 10 years.
In that time:
promised bonuses stopped completely
prmised payrises ground to a halt
I had 2 payrises (despite numerous 'promotions') (in 10 years)
Both payrises were low single figure % - less than infaltion at the time
The promised pension plan was shelved
The pension plan was changed so instead of contributing £60 a month I was contributing £240 just to maintain same level
Terms and conditions were changed numerous times
Holiday entitlement was cut by 5 days a year
I was made redundant.
Additionally, I dont trust the company to actually honour its pension commitiments when I retire.
I never took 'militant' strike action that affected people across the country.
Maybe you should have then. Just saying.I've worked for the same Private sector company for the last 10 years.
In that time:
promised bonuses stopped completely
prmised payrises ground to a halt
I had 2 payrises (despite numerous 'promotions') (in 10 years)
Both payrises were low single figure % - less than infaltion at the time
The promised pension plan was shelved
The pension plan was changed so instead of contributing £60 a month I was contributing £240 just to maintain same level
Terms and conditions were changed numerous times
Holiday entitlement was cut by 5 days a year
I was made redundant.
Additionally, I dont trust the company to actually honour its pension commitiments when I retire.
I never took 'militant' strike action that affected people across the country.
Tyre Smoke said:
Really? And you think striking achieves what, exactly? Nothing constructive and damages company profitability to the point of destruction sometimes.
My kitchen caught on fire.The rest of the house caught on fire.
All my things burned.
The roof caught on fire and collapsed.
The walls fell in.
All I was left with was a pile of rubble and ash.
The rubble caught on fire and the ash blew away.
I didn't call the fire brigade on principle. Moral victory!
I'm not naive enough to suggest it has a positive outcome every time - but if I'm continually being kicked in the head, I'm probably disinclined to accept it in order to compile a compendium of received kickings years later.
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