Canadian Honor Killings - Guilty

[just me]

Mermaid said:

A day at Terminal 3 is a depressing sight, you want to get a huge dollop of super glue and put it on all the entry doors.

So that's how it should be done. Do you want to prevent people leaving, or did you mean airplane doors (that open up to gaping jetways).

[Mermaid]

just me said:

Mermaid said:

A day at Terminal 3 is a depressing sight, you want to get a huge dollop of super glue and put it on all the entry doors.

So that's how it should be done. Do you want to prevent people leaving, or did you mean airplane doors (that open up to gaping jetways).

You know what I mean

[MX7]

just me said:

It is a cultural thing in some muslim societies, as well as some other backwards societies

"Oh, look over there."

just me said:

Any citizen who espouses beliefs (that fellow citizens believe he will act upon) such as honour killings, whether as a joke or in seriousness, will be immediately placed in custody and evaluated for such tendencies.

Yeah, that's bound to work!

just me said:

According to Dr. Shahrzad Mojab, a University of Toronto professor of women’s studies, followers of Hinduism, Islam, Judaism and Christianity have used their religions as a rationale to commit honour killings.

How long ago, and how often?


I don't understand why you can't just say that it's a massive fkup, instead of trying to excuse it.

[Mermaid]

MX7 said:

just me said:

It is a cultural thing in some muslim societies, as well as some other backwards societies

"Oh, look over there."

Bat Yam rally: Death to Jewish women who date Arabs
Yoav Zitun, Ynet, Dec 21 2010

Some 200 people held a demonstration in central Bat Yam Monday evening against relationships between local Jewish women and Arab men. One of the protestors called out:

Any Jewish woman who goes with an Arab should be killed; any Jew who sells his home to an Arab should be killed.

http://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2010/12/21/jewish-rall...

[just me]

MX7 said:

just me said:

It is a cultural thing in some muslim societies, as well as some other backwards societies

"Oh, look over there."

just me said:

Any citizen who espouses beliefs (that fellow citizens believe he will act upon) such as honour killings, whether as a joke or in seriousness, will be immediately placed in custody and evaluated for such tendencies.

Yeah, that's bound to work!

just me said:

According to Dr. Shahrzad Mojab, a University of Toronto professor of women’s studies, followers of Hinduism, Islam, Judaism and Christianity have used their religions as a rationale to commit honour killings.

How long ago, and how often?


I don't understand why you can't just say that it's a massive fkup, instead of trying to excuse it.

You seem retarded. No one is excusing anything. Personally, I think a 25 year sentence is far too light for 4 murders. Personally, I think anyone who agrees with the notion of honour killings should be removed from the gene pool.

How long ago? It happens today, if you could only get past your hatred of Muslims and open your eyes.

Moron.

[MX7]

Mermaid said:

Bat Yam rally: Death to Jewish women who date Arabs
Yoav Zitun, Ynet, Dec 21 2010

Some 200 people held a demonstration in central Bat Yam Monday evening against relationships between local Jewish women and Arab men. One of the protestors called out:

Any Jewish woman who goes with an Arab should be killed; any Jew who sells his home to an Arab should be killed.

http://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2010/12/21/jewish-rall...

So no one was actually killed. Great example. It almost tops the 1,000s of Muslims that are actually killed every year.

Do you have any other example of religious people saying stupid things?

[MX7]

just me said:

ou seem retarded. No one is excusing anything. Personally, I think a 25 year sentence is far too light for 4 murders. Personally, I think anyone who agrees with the notion of honour killings should be removed from the gene pool.

How long ago? It happens today, if you could only get past your hatred of Muslims and open your eyes.

Moron.

Wow. You're priceless.

[carmonk]

just me said:

Tahira Shaid Khan, a professor of women’s issues at Aga Khan University, notes that there is nothing in the Qur'an that permits or sanctions honor killings.[26] The first and most basic right in the Qur'an that every Muslim is expected to follow is, in fact, the right to life.

Qur'an said:

That if anyone slays a human being – unless it be [in punishment] for murder or for spreading corruption on earth – it shall be as though he had slain all mankind; whereas, if anyone saves a life, it shall be as though he had saved the lives of all mankind.

The Koran also says very clearly that women are second class citizens, that men are made by Allah to be superior to women, that women are property and can be traded, that a Muslim man should hit his wife if she disobeys him twice and that any woman indulging in 'lewd' behaviour shall be imprisoned for life in their house and be denied their inheritance (I believe some haddiths recommend death for this). It also says women are dirty (you shouldn't pray if you've just touched one), that menstruation is a filthy illness and that women should remained covered in order to avoid tempting the man. When you mix in the haddiths and Islamic Law (Sharia), which offer such savoury instructions as women marrying outside of Islam should be killed and women who are raped bring it upon themselves, you can begin to see how Islam itself is almost invariably present when the issue of honour crimes crops up.

[just me]

Carmonk,
yes, if you choose to interpret it literally (and I know that many do), it does exactly as you say.
If you choose to interpret the bible literally (and I know many do), then it also says unsavory things. You know that.
Same with the torah. Etc. I have personally seen crazed Orthodox Jews, and how they treat women and what they think of them. Just the other week there was a report of a young (Orthodox, but not Orthodox enough) Jewish girl who was pelted with stones and was jeered and insulted on her way to school by the religious fanatics.

Islam has the added complication that you are not supposed to change anything one iota. No interpretation, no input. Just literal meaning and obeisance. I know that. And yes it causes many problems. Even those who choose to embrace it to a far greater degree, such as Imams, will stop well short of killing their family members. Unfortunately, the few that don't are always in the news. And people like to seize upon them to pillory all of Islam, every Muslim. That's stupid. It's equally stupid to give the fanatics the freedom to carry on their hateful work.

No excuses, this is unacceptable, and such people need to be removed from society.

[Lost soul]

just me said:

I have personally seen crazed Orthodox Jews, and how they treat women and what they think of them. Just the other week there was a report of a young (Orthodox, but not Orthodox enough) Jewish girl who was pelted with stones and was jeered and insulted on her way to school by the religious fanatics.

In Jerusalem i was shouted at and had stones thrown at me for smoking , well it was Friday evening after all so i guess i deserved it

[DonkeyApple]

Bing o said:

I can't believe you think people from New Zealand are equivalent to the issues created by large numbers of Muslim immigrants.

Well, neither group can drink, both have a penchant for lamb and both seem to struggle with English.

[pacman1]

DonkeyApple said:

Bing o said:

I can't believe you think people from New Zealand are equivalent to the issues created by large numbers of Muslim immigrants.

Well, neither group can drink, both have a penchant for lamb and both seem to struggle with English.

[carmonk]

just me said:

Carmonk,
yes, if you choose to interpret it literally (and I know that many do), it does exactly as you say.
If you choose to interpret the bible literally (and I know many do), then it also says unsavory things. You know that.
Same with the torah. Etc. I have personally seen crazed Orthodox Jews, and how they treat women and what they think of them. Just the other week there was a report of a young (Orthodox, but not Orthodox enough) Jewish girl who was pelted with stones and was jeered and insulted on her way to school by the religious fanatics.

Indeed, I hold all organised religion in contempt to a greater or lesser degree. The Bible is an absolutely degenerate book but the key point here is that in the UK at least there is little violence or significant oppression committed in its name. Most people who call themselves Christians have never read the Bible and base their faith on the idea that Jesus said "be nice" so they just try to be nice and turn up to church when they can be bothered. Ridiculous and unneccessary, yes, but it rarely results in direct harm in the ways Islam does.

just me said:

Islam has the added complication that you are not supposed to change anything one iota. No interpretation, no input. Just literal meaning and obeisance. I know that. And yes it causes many problems. Even those who choose to embrace it to a far greater degree, such as Imams, will stop well short of killing their family members. Unfortunately, the few that don't are always in the news. And people like to seize upon them to pillory all of Islam, every Muslim. That's stupid. It's equally stupid to give the fanatics the freedom to carry on their hateful work.

No excuses, this is unacceptable, and such people need to be removed from society.

That's true, the Koran is seen as the immutable word of God, and as such will become more and more at odds with morality and society as time passes. When you consider Islam itself is only 1400 years old this is rightly worrying. Yes, people who are willing to kill their family must be removed from society but that's the symptom and not the cause. The cause is a belief system that encourages atrocity, discrimination and intolerance, at the heart of which is the Koran. I certainly don't hate Muslims (aside from a few newsworthy characters of note) as many do the Christian thing and cherry pick what they believe and don't believe, but I do hate Islam and I think every reasonable person should do the same.

You say that most Muslims are peaceful and wouldn't kill their families, which of course is true (at least in the UK). But how many Muslims denigrate women in ways that don't result in death because of what Islam and Islamic society teaches? The figures are shocking and it's generally accepted most crimes aren't reported. Which is another issue. How many Muslims would report honour violence or their suspicions of honour crimes in their community to the police? Very few, I'm sure you'd agree. And why, because Muslims are evil? No, because Islam teaches them this is the way to behave. As we can see from the truly frightening polls concerning the views of UK Muslims on terrorism, it's not just the militants with whom the problem lies.

[just me]

Interesting about the symptoms and cause thing, though I am not sure if it's Islam alone, or a toxic mix of misogyny, Islam, patriarchal social structures, and other backwards and deeply repressive cultural elements. I wouldn't blame it primarily on Islam, but am willing to be convinced.

I can't stand abuse in the name of religion. You have more moderate views on Christianity. If you lived in the US, you would see what Christian radicalism is, denial of evolution, terrorism against abortion doctors, everything. There are some deeply Orthodox Jewish communities in New York state where you would be STUNNED at how they treat women, especially those who resist the indoctrination. Go to India to see Hindu bride burning, caste system/untouchable atrocities, and a host of other evils. Pakistan and Afghanistan are not even vomit-worthy.

It's not just religion though. Look at Eastern Europe for plain ol' mistreatment and exploitation of women just because they have vaginas and are physically weaker. China to Thailand, and lots of Africa--you have your average sex worker. I think they are supposed to be thankful that they are being given a chance to earn money.

[Marquis Rex]

Savage barbaric behaviour- but what else is new?
I knew it wouldn't be long before an appologist came out of the woodwork. It seems to have become trendy on PH to be anti- American, Pro-Islam, Anti-Israel (and green and pro electric car also).
The usual tact is to slag off other religions also such as Hinduism, Judaism and Sikhism with extreme prejudice or associating some barbaric act with other religion- although it's usually the first anyones ever heard of this. Turning a blind eye to terrorism in Israel and Kashmir and/or pointing the finger at the opposing culture. Some pointing of fingers and calling the race card usually never goes amiss either.
My guess will be that someone will respond to this post with extreme agression and derriding anger in the true spirit of integrating with other cultures

[just me]

carmonk said:

You say that most Muslims are peaceful and wouldn't kill their families, which of course is true (at least in the UK). But how many Muslims denigrate women in ways that don't result in death because of what Islam and Islamic society teaches?

I will be honest, I haven't seen this. Most Muslim men treat women with respect. You can argue that it's Western society that sexualizes everything and ultimately does women more of a disservice (by treating them as nothing more than sexual objects). The Muslims I know (and I know a ton) all want their daughters to have professional careers and make it in life like any western woman. Perhaps not as promiscuously, with not as much flesh showing, but if they were to choose that, it would result in arguments at most, not in anything more radical like physical beatings, etc. Basically, it's the same value system as any western family's, though a bit more conservative than what Paris Hilton symbolizes. Still, if one of their daughters chooses to emulate Paris Hilton, I don't think ti would lead to anything much besides resignation that "we lost one". I think that's the same reaction you would get from a British family that raised a chav or hoe or whatever.

carmonk said:

The figures are shocking and it's generally accepted most crimes aren't reported. Which is another issue. How many Muslims would report honour violence or their suspicions of honour crimes in their community to the police? Very few, I'm sure you'd agree.

No, I would think that it would be reported, especially in the west. In places like Pakistan and Afghanistan, in remote communities, yes, I am sure these types of things are underreported. To what extent, I don't know, but I am willing to be convinced by hard data.

carmonk said:

And why, because Muslims are evil? No, because Islam teaches them this is the way to behave.

Depending on what paragraph(s) you choose to listen to and prioritize, you can make this case for any of the other major religions. Most Muslims take Islam to be a code that teaches them to live peacefully, in fear of evil, and in submission to Allah, who asks that they be good people and do good deeds. That seems like a fairly decent code to me. Where it goes awry is when the instructions for morality are taken too literally, to a point of extremism, and those who don't subscribe to that view are treated with intolerance and contempt. Very few people go to these lengths. Look at the number of Muslims who pray devoutly 5 times a day, but don't think badly or cast aspersions on those who don't, or on non-Muslims. They are everywhere, and they have integrated well into western society.

carmonk said:

As we can see from the truly frightening polls concerning the views of UK Muslims on terrorism, it's not just the militants with whom the problem lies.

I really wonder about those polls. How were the questions phrased? Who did they ask? Was it administered after everyone had been stirred into a fervor by some sermon? I have yet to meet a British Muslim friend who agrees with terrorism. Not saying they don't exist, but I can't imagine they are near as pervasive as these polls make them out to be. I suspect the questions are asked one way, and the results are presented as another. I would really like to know the entire context. If it is as you say, I would ask, "Why do you permit these cockroaches to infest your society?" Deny them the privilege of living in your midst. Let them go live out their hate-filled existence elsewhere. If, after 5 years of living in Britain, they are repulsed by bikinis in ads, or the sight of people eating pork, or have some other hang-ups that point to poor adjustment to their adopted countries' values, well, it's time to end the relationship. Elect someone with the backbone to do this. Even to people who are born there and have citizenship.

I don't know why the Canadians are committing to providing these animals with 25 years of food, water and shelter, to be followed by freedom. There is something fundamentally wrong with that picture.

Edited by just me on Tuesday 31st January 21:01

[carmonk]

just me said:

Interesting about the symptoms and cause thing, though I am not sure if it's Islam alone, or a toxic mix of misogyny, Islam, patriarchal social structures, and other backwards and deeply repressive cultural elements. I wouldn't blame it primarily on Islam, but am willing to be convinced.

Maybe, maybe not, but I think we can safely blame the primary cause of the longevity of this behaviour squarely on Islam. Without the immutable word of God proving a link to a bygone and totally unacceptable morality and way of life the culture formally known as Islam would be free to evolve.

just me said:

I can't stand abuse in the name of religion. You have more moderate views on Christianity. If you lived in the US, you would see what Christian radicalism is, denial of evolution, terrorism against abortion doctors, everything. There are some deeply Orthodox Jewish communities in New York state where you would be STUNNED at how they treat women, especially those who resist the indoctrination. Go to India to see Hindu bride burning, caste system/untouchable atrocities, and a host of other evils. Pakistan and Afghanistan are not even vomit-worthy.

It's not just religion though. Look at Eastern Europe for plain ol' mistreatment and exploitation of women just because they have vaginas and are physically weaker. China to Thailand, and lots of Africa--you have your average sex worker. I think they are supposed to be thankful that they are being given a chance to earn money.

Honestly, I wouldn't be stunned, I spend an unhealthy amount of time reading up on these things. As I say, I'm not defending any religion, least of all Christianity (which is why I specifically referred to the UK earlier) or any social abberations in secular society of which there are many. All I'm saying that when a clear cause can be identified then it needs to be addressed. And Islam is without doubt a clear cause.

And of course, it's a bit disengenuous of us to completely separate secular society from religious society being that religion is simply man-made control, so obviously there are going to be strong links between the two - the treatment of women being a prime example. Man believes woman is inferior and so - tada! So does Allah! Amazing, or not...

[just me]

You follow the same lines of reasoning as me, but you arrive at different conclusions. Perhaps because you are not muslim, and have not witnessed Islamic culture firsthand. Go to any muslim household in Britain or America, and tell me if you see women being denigrated or disrespected any more than in any non-white household.

Many of these households (every member, not just the men) have different values. The women cover their heads willingly. They don't date, because they think it is being promiscuous, not because daddy or big brother tells them not to. They don't wear revealing outfits, because they think it cheapens themselves. Is it programming? I don't know. Maybe. But there are plenty of households where the men don't like the women doing these things, but don't prevent them from following their interpretation of religion/code of how to live. There are plenty of families where one girl wears the headscarf, while the other one is perfectly happy in skirts.

So, I don't blame Islam. I have seen Jewish women with shaved heads. I don't blame Judaism. Somewhere there's a nutjob who suggested these things as a path to God. Somewhere, there's a weak-minded/ignorant individual who took it and ran with it.

And Islam is evolving, whether the doctrine allows it or not. Look at how Muslims live today, and how they lived 100 years ago. I will be the first to agree with you that in some areas, it is not evolving quickly enough, and that is leading to a lot of conflict. But it is definitely changing.

I don't blame Christianity for the Westbro Baptists either. Or Sikhism or Hinduism for what Sikhs and Hindus do in the name of their religion.

Edited by just me on Tuesday 31st January 21:14

[just me]

Marquis Rex said:

Savage barbaric behaviour- but what else is new?
I knew it wouldn't be long before an appologist came out of the woodwork. It seems to have become trendy on PH to be anti- American, Pro-Islam, Anti-Israel (and green and pro electric car also).
The usual tact is to slag off other religions also such as Hinduism, Judaism and Sikhism with extreme prejudice or associating some barbaric act with other religion- although it's usually the first anyones ever heard of this. Turning a blind eye to terrorism in Israel and Kashmir and/or pointing the finger at the opposing culture. Some pointing of fingers and calling the race card usually never goes amiss either.
My guess will be that someone will respond to this post with extreme agression and derriding anger in the true spirit of integrating with other cultures

No, just sadness for you.

[Marquis Rex]

just me said:

No, just sadness for you.

I am an infidel afterall