BBC News banging on about student loans, again!
Discussion
blueg33 said:
And you still have to teach them to write a letter in anything that resembles English.
There is only one correct style in which to write a thesis, and that is the way one's supervisor would have written it. It takes a while after finishing it to start to write like a normal human being again 
otolith said:
There is only one correct style in which to write a thesis, and that is the way one's supervisor would have written it. It takes a while after finishing it to start to write like a normal human being again
Is that part of the problem, lecturers are very much out of tune with the real world?Kudos said:
otolith said:
There is only one correct style in which to write a thesis, and that is the way one's supervisor would have written it. It takes a while after finishing it to start to write like a normal human being again
Is that part of the problem, lecturers are very much out of tune with the real world?Derek Smith said:
So what do you tell your students? Yes, it is cheap money, but you must consider the other costs of university, such as the loss of income over the three years. You might well want to buy books, accommodation, or go on trips. All this costs and if you work part time then your income, in an area where there might be thousands of students all after the same kind of jobs, might well only be enough to cover living expenses.
Do you mention the loss of seniority?
Do you tell them that the person who started three years before you might well have a distinct advantage. A degree giving acess to a particular style of business ends there. Once inside you are competing and your degree might be just so much paper. Many degrees have a short eat-by date and if you are using it as a way in to the job of your dreams then there might well be other routes, ones which will not lumber you with a debt which might be a high percentage of your disposable income over certain periods of your life.
Do you tell them that in life nothing is straightforward? That something always happens? You might fill in a spreadsheet and know that everything is OK and then it all goes wrong.
I'd tell my students to ask themselves what they want out of life. A degree is only a route, not the destination. Can they go about it another way, one that might well be more interesting? One that doesn't leave them in debt.
I' mention Mr Micawber.
Apologies for the selective quoting, but these are the lines that I needed to address.Do you mention the loss of seniority?
Do you tell them that the person who started three years before you might well have a distinct advantage. A degree giving acess to a particular style of business ends there. Once inside you are competing and your degree might be just so much paper. Many degrees have a short eat-by date and if you are using it as a way in to the job of your dreams then there might well be other routes, ones which will not lumber you with a debt which might be a high percentage of your disposable income over certain periods of your life.
Do you tell them that in life nothing is straightforward? That something always happens? You might fill in a spreadsheet and know that everything is OK and then it all goes wrong.
I'd tell my students to ask themselves what they want out of life. A degree is only a route, not the destination. Can they go about it another way, one that might well be more interesting? One that doesn't leave them in debt.
I' mention Mr Micawber.
Edited by Derek Smith on Saturday 10th March 11:16
The majority of my students are elgible for Maintenance grants and loans, so their tuition fees and their other loans are rolled together - say £9000 for tuition, £4000 Maintenance loan and £3000 grant, so living costs are covered.
Loss of seniority? Seriously, these days in a lot of jobs seniority means nothing. If you are excellent, you can earn a massive amount immediately - and I would encourage those students to do that rather than go to University. Of course I would. However, there are maybe 3 or 4 out of 60 A-level students that complete each year with those innate talents which have developed enough to be commercially viable. The remainder of the students may NEVER reach the earning potential that those excellent students achieve in the first couple of years in employment. In the computing field the mobility of employees mean that pay rises depend on achievements, not time with companies. There are few benefits to staying with an employer, apart from possibly security.
In my field, the main thing is experience of relevant technologies and willingness to develop skills and develop yourself. For a lot of companies even if the job doesn't require it a degree is an essential requirement to get your foot in the door. That's it - if you don't have a degree then you won't even be considered for a job in this field - unless you have demonstratable genius. I've worked with companies that required their office junior/runner to have a upper second degree.
I tell students about all options which are available to them - however there are only so many routes to success. I've tried many of them, including education, being an employee (twice made redundant, so I know the importance of planning and not overstretching yourself financially) and running my own companies. There are NO easy routes, but the main thing is that you don't close doors to opportunities if you can possibly help it.
My very first job required a degree. I haven't ever used the knowledge that I gained during the degree, but I have used the skills - over and over again.
That's why I encourage and support UCAS applications even if the person is looking for a job, as if they don't find something then University is an option, but if they don't apply then it's another door closed - one that becomes more difficult to open again as they grow older and have increasing responsibilities. Not impossible, but certainly more difficult. If they get a job that they want, that's great.
Bah, I think it should be done on a sliding scale of which degrees benefit the economy the most. Having said that, the actual tuition fees don't even register on my finances because I know I'll be able to pay it off easily.
I read an interesting article in our University newspaper the other day about how the rise in tuition fees had pushed people towards more vocational subjects like Science and Engineering, to the tune of a 20% rise. Arts based courses had seen a similar drop in applicants. If that's what it takes to make people do proper subjects, then so be it.
I read an interesting article in our University newspaper the other day about how the rise in tuition fees had pushed people towards more vocational subjects like Science and Engineering, to the tune of a 20% rise. Arts based courses had seen a similar drop in applicants. If that's what it takes to make people do proper subjects, then so be it.
clarkey328is said:
Bah, I think it should be done on a sliding scale of which degrees benefit the economy the most. Having said that, the actual tuition fees don't even register on my finances because I know I'll be able to pay it off easily.
I read an interesting article in our University newspaper the other day about how the rise in tuition fees had pushed people towards more vocational subjects like Science and Engineering, to the tune of a 20% rise. Arts based courses had seen a similar drop in applicants. If that's what it takes to make people do proper subjects, then so be it.
Yes, because the arts have never enriched humanity at all... I read an interesting article in our University newspaper the other day about how the rise in tuition fees had pushed people towards more vocational subjects like Science and Engineering, to the tune of a 20% rise. Arts based courses had seen a similar drop in applicants. If that's what it takes to make people do proper subjects, then so be it.
TTwiggy said:
clarkey328is said:
Bah, I think it should be done on a sliding scale of which degrees benefit the economy the most. Having said that, the actual tuition fees don't even register on my finances because I know I'll be able to pay it off easily.
I read an interesting article in our University newspaper the other day about how the rise in tuition fees had pushed people towards more vocational subjects like Science and Engineering, to the tune of a 20% rise. Arts based courses had seen a similar drop in applicants. If that's what it takes to make people do proper subjects, then so be it.
Yes, because the arts have never enriched humanity at all... I read an interesting article in our University newspaper the other day about how the rise in tuition fees had pushed people towards more vocational subjects like Science and Engineering, to the tune of a 20% rise. Arts based courses had seen a similar drop in applicants. If that's what it takes to make people do proper subjects, then so be it.
singlecoil said:
He's right too.
Really? So the example of the rennaissance man who could turn his hand to art and science with equal skill is lost on you then?My late uncle was a draughtsman in the days before CAD. He drew, by hand, the blueprints for the cooling system at Winscale. He had no scientific or engineering training, he was just very good at drawing - an artist, if you will, who happened to use his skills in an engineering context.
The 'arts' encompasses a vast range of subjects, many of which are very important for the betterment of society, even if the economic rewards are not so immediate or obvious.
TTwiggy said:
Really? So the example of the rennaissance man who could turn his hand to art and science with equal skill is lost on you then?
I think you are talking about a gifted individual who probably doesn't need to go to university, not the teenagers who, having had an interesting gap year, are now ready to tackle some classics, or maybe some drama, how about some Frech literature, really useful stuff that the rest of us are going to benefit from? I don't think so. I've no objection to them wasting a few years on that stuff, as long as they pay for it themselves.TTwiggy said:
Really? So the example of the rennaissance man who could turn his hand to art and science with equal skill is lost on you then?.
To be fair, it's not really possible to be expert in all of science now, let alone all of art too. The thing about the renaissance is that the sum of human knowledge was smaller, and being a genuine polymath was possible.singlecoil said:
Your sarcasm is exceeded only by the irrelevance of your examples.
You mean my examples that will all (most likely) have been created by arts graduates?Of the original subjects that were studied at university - classics, theology, law, architecture and medicine - only medicine is a science.
Before the industrial revolution, most of the 'great men' in the history of this country were arts graduates.
I have the greatest respect for science
- and did A levels in physics and chemistry - I just object to the offhand dismissal of the arts that pervades this site.
A reminder that students still don't bear the true cost of the degree (there is still an overall subsidy) and interest is subsidised by the exchequer to below market rates.
Attending university should be a serious decision - the cost of providing a university education is itself a serious amount.
It also is a good sign that it looks like some young people are deciding not to attend university.
Attending university should be a serious decision - the cost of providing a university education is itself a serious amount.
It also is a good sign that it looks like some young people are deciding not to attend university.
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