Who to believe - Brown or Brooks?
Discussion
IforB said:
rohrl said:
Says you, a man on the internet.
None of us here are Brown's GP or Psychiatrist and none of us know how he was affected by his daughter dying, the diagnosis of CF in his son or the pressure of the job and being screwed over by Blair.
For the record I'm no great fan of Brown's performance as PM or how he conducted himself with his staff while in office but I know a lynch-mob mentality when I see it and some of the unfair criticism of Brown has been quite ugly.
Well said.None of us here are Brown's GP or Psychiatrist and none of us know how he was affected by his daughter dying, the diagnosis of CF in his son or the pressure of the job and being screwed over by Blair.
For the record I'm no great fan of Brown's performance as PM or how he conducted himself with his staff while in office but I know a lynch-mob mentality when I see it and some of the unfair criticism of Brown has been quite ugly.
To read most people's comments on here you'd think that Brown was a combination of Beelzebub, Pol Pot and Fred West.
I'm afraid this sort of blinkered nonsensical hatred is the reason that I rarely venture into this section of PH.
how right you are though those on here would probably respond 'how 'left(ie) you are'
.dandarez said:
how right you are though those on here would probably respond 'how 'left(ie) you are'
.Obviously either of those things would be the worst crimes known to man, or should I say PH man?
IforB said:
Oh yes. I'm just surprised I haven't been accused of being a "pinko" or even worse, a Grauniad reader...
Obviously either of those things would be the worst crimes known to man, or should I say PH man?
I suppose you could be reading the Guardian while hogging the middle lane in a 2.0 Tdi Audi fitted with daylight running lights. On the other hand you might be a bus driver who insists on customers paying their fare before travelling. Both would put you up there with Hitler.Obviously either of those things would be the worst crimes known to man, or should I say PH man?
IforB said:
To read most people's comments on here you'd think that Brown was a combination of Beelzebub, Pol Pot and Fred West.
Surely folk have suggested a million times not to exaggerate 
If we're reading the same comments, they say the man was incompetent, did harm to the country, has personality 'issues' and a less than totally ethical way of doing business in terms of poisonous henchmen kept at arm's length where possible for plausible deniability.
turbobloke said:
Surely folk have suggested a million times not to exaggerate
If we're reading the same comments, they say the man was incompetent, did harm to the country, has personality 'issues' and a less than totally ethical way of doing business in terms of poisonous henchmen kept at arm's length where possible for plausible deniability.
All the kind of comments you read from people that have met him. Not the kind of comments we read about Major or even Blair really. I was quite surprised by all the comments in the media about his honesty yesterday. Some were more measured like "jaw dropping or "eyes popped" regarding Browns statements. Brown was even accused of rewriting history. There appears to be a common view in the media that he is/was at least a bit misleading yesterday.If we're reading the same comments, they say the man was incompetent, did harm to the country, has personality 'issues' and a less than totally ethical way of doing business in terms of poisonous henchmen kept at arm's length where possible for plausible deniability.
That, combined with his mishandling of the economy the pension grab and selling the gold put him up there as one of Britains worst political leaders. The only good thing he did was let the BofE control interest rates. I think Labour did lots of good stuff with the money they threw around but they also wasted millions. It would be hard not to do some good when you spent that much money though.
el stovey said:
turbobloke said:
Surely folk have suggested a million times not to exaggerate
If we're reading the same comments, they say the man was incompetent, did harm to the country, has personality 'issues' and a less than totally ethical way of doing business in terms of poisonous henchmen kept at arm's length where possible for plausible deniability.
All the kind of comments you read from people that have met him. Not the kind of comments we read about Major or even Blair really. I was quite surprised by all the comments in the media about his honesty yesterday. Some were more measured like "jaw dropping or "eyes popped" regarding Browns statements. Brown was even accused of rewriting history. There appears to be a common view in the media that he is/was at least a bit misleading yesterday.If we're reading the same comments, they say the man was incompetent, did harm to the country, has personality 'issues' and a less than totally ethical way of doing business in terms of poisonous henchmen kept at arm's length where possible for plausible deniability.
That, combined with his mishandling of the economy the pension grab and selling the gold put him up there as one of Britains worst political leaders. The only good thing he did was let the BofE control interest rates. I think Labour did lots of good stuff with the money they threw around but they also wasted millions. It would be hard not to do some good when you spent that much money though.
The following links are criticised due to the identity some of the newspapers - even though The Guardian and Independent are in there - but such criticism is baseless anyway as the reports merely cover HMG or ONS data. Not having checked every link this time around, apologies in advance if any have moved since last time.
Gap between rich and poor has widened under Labour
Child and Pensioner poverty up under Labour
Gulf between rich and poor cities widens under Labour
Inequality worse under Labour than under Thatcher
Gulf in health between rich and poor widens under Labour government
NHS productivity falls under Labour
Public sector productivity falls under Labour
Youth reoffending increases from 2000
Education gap for poorest pupils widens under Labour
Education productivity falls under Labour
Britain nosedives in education league tables under Labour
scenario8 said:
For anyone who has genuinely studied Churchill, the man and his actions, he is clearly a very complicated character with immense flaws who over a period of sixty odd years made many highly questionable decisions and displayed curious character traits that in a more invasive and less respectful media age would likely see him atleast challenged to a very high degree.
I'd suggest an uncomplicated myth has developed around him in the sixty odd years since WW2 and rarely are his flaws even considered by the masses (certainly the British masses). He's a "goodie" what won the war. For many that's enough.
We're somewhat heading off topic, though!
An unfair critique of the times. He *was* challenged, repeatedly. Churchill pissed off a lot of people, including the electorate for his actions at times. His career was in many ways effectively dead prior to '37.I'd suggest an uncomplicated myth has developed around him in the sixty odd years since WW2 and rarely are his flaws even considered by the masses (certainly the British masses). He's a "goodie" what won the war. For many that's enough.
We're somewhat heading off topic, though!
And it isnt off topic. As someone who is incredibly grateful to Stephen Fry for bringing the subject of Bi-polar and "Depression" into the public light and making it possible to look at and assess yourself without slowly thinking you are genuinely going nuts, then I fully get where Churchill and Brown were at. Winston was massively, deeply flawed as a "normal" politician and as such in many ways, he struggled with normal life. He could only do "epic", he struggled to regard anything else as worthy. His 2nd stint as PM as an older man was a much more successful period of being "normal" for him as he managed to find painting as therapy. Earlier in his career he had spectacular failures...and then made up for with spectacular moves. In the end though he found a unique niche. It gave him the most epic battle in the history of mankind, a set of circumstances for which he was almost uniquely qualified. In those circumstances, square shape fits square hole. If you look at his counterparts...FDR, Stalin and Hitler...the were all nutjobs aswell. The man who replaced FDR still remains today the only man to have ever authorised nuking anybody. These are not the actions of normal, rational, sane, people.
Brown's trouble is and was not that he "suffered", it was simply that he was incompetent at the job.
Edited by DJRC on Tuesday 12th June 12:31
turbobloke said:
I see what you're saying and we could both point to the look of certain Labour stronghold northern cities pre- and post-Labour, but remembering that the money was either borrowed or the mortgaged future earnings of a generation (i.e. both) and that all types of poverty increased under Blair and Brown, if they did some good what was it?!
The following links are criticised due to the identity some of the newspapers - even though The Guardian and Independent are in there - but such criticism is baseless anyway as the reports merely cover HMG or ONS data. Not having checked every link this time around, apologies in advance if any have moved since last time.
Gap between rich and poor has widened under Labour
Child and Pensioner poverty up under Labour
Gulf between rich and poor cities widens under Labour
Inequality worse under Labour than under Thatcher
Gulf in health between rich and poor widens under Labour government
NHS productivity falls under Labour
Public sector productivity falls under Labour
Youth reoffending increases from 2000
Education gap for poorest pupils widens under Labour
Education productivity falls under Labour
Britain nosedives in education league tables under Labour
All of this was more than compensated for by the huge financial rewards for being scum.The following links are criticised due to the identity some of the newspapers - even though The Guardian and Independent are in there - but such criticism is baseless anyway as the reports merely cover HMG or ONS data. Not having checked every link this time around, apologies in advance if any have moved since last time.
Gap between rich and poor has widened under Labour
Child and Pensioner poverty up under Labour
Gulf between rich and poor cities widens under Labour
Inequality worse under Labour than under Thatcher
Gulf in health between rich and poor widens under Labour government
NHS productivity falls under Labour
Public sector productivity falls under Labour
Youth reoffending increases from 2000
Education gap for poorest pupils widens under Labour
Education productivity falls under Labour
Britain nosedives in education league tables under Labour
I couldn't help but notice yesterday that Vince now wants to include a financial payoff as part of getting rid of s
t employees. It beggars belief that people still don't understand that if you pay people to behave badly they are going to behave er, badly and more people will join in.IforB said:
I see Brown as a weak man who thought he was tough, but couldn't make the big calls when he needed to. He made stupid, reactive decisions and engineered his own downfall. I also think he told a couple of porkies during his questioning yesterday.
Lucky for all of us he never held a position of responsibility.whoami said:
DJRC said:
For some reason you seem to think whether or not he lied under oath is important or not. Its only important if he suffers consequences from that, otherwise it is of no more import than him saying "cheese".
Yup, bugger all will happen.Is it not generally accepted that a 'Politician' of almost any type is little more than a 'Professional Liar' anyway?
The real truth is seen as little more than an inconvenience to be ignored or transformed into 'Their Truth'?
Above all else McBrown is a very poor actor making it easy for most to see through his amateurish lies.
If you can't see through his thin facade yourself then I'd suggest you not invite travelling tarmac technicians around to attend to your driveway.
The real truth is seen as little more than an inconvenience to be ignored or transformed into 'Their Truth'?
Above all else McBrown is a very poor actor making it easy for most to see through his amateurish lies.
If you can't see through his thin facade yourself then I'd suggest you not invite travelling tarmac technicians around to attend to your driveway.
Steve Zodiac said:
Is it not generally accepted that a 'Politician' of almost any type is little more than a 'Professional Liar' anyway?
The real truth is seen as little more than an inconvenience to be ignored or transformed into 'Their Truth'?
Above all else McBrown is a very poor actor making it easy for most to see through his amateurish lies.
If you can't see through his thin facade yourself then I'd suggest you not invite travelling tarmac technicians around to attend to your driveway.
Why do you call him "McBrown"?The real truth is seen as little more than an inconvenience to be ignored or transformed into 'Their Truth'?
Above all else McBrown is a very poor actor making it easy for most to see through his amateurish lies.
If you can't see through his thin facade yourself then I'd suggest you not invite travelling tarmac technicians around to attend to your driveway.
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