Breaking News! Poor people not to be trusted with money
Discussion
total benefits bill £200bn/year...We share our offices with a charity that helps people understand benefits and tries to help people avoid serious debt.
Their two main bodies of work are helping the families of people with terminal illnesses deal with their financial affairs making sure they don't fall into debt by being sick, and helping those in debt manage it and avoid it.
Over about 5 years the demand for debt advice has increased by about 1000%. Some of these are people who became unemployed and can't manage, some are just people who've over stretched. Most however are people who prioritise luxuries, owe a fortune to bright house or wonga etc and who don't realised they've got a problem until a bailiff is on the way. They did try offering to teach people how to understand money and how to avoid debt, plan budgets etc, the only people who turned up were the ones who didn't really need help and just wanted a day out and some free biscuits, the terminally stupid didn't have time as they're always busy despite doing nothing.
Their two main bodies of work are helping the families of people with terminal illnesses deal with their financial affairs making sure they don't fall into debt by being sick, and helping those in debt manage it and avoid it.
Over about 5 years the demand for debt advice has increased by about 1000%. Some of these are people who became unemployed and can't manage, some are just people who've over stretched. Most however are people who prioritise luxuries, owe a fortune to bright house or wonga etc and who don't realised they've got a problem until a bailiff is on the way. They did try offering to teach people how to understand money and how to avoid debt, plan budgets etc, the only people who turned up were the ones who didn't really need help and just wanted a day out and some free biscuits, the terminally stupid didn't have time as they're always busy despite doing nothing.
Deva Link said:
Most of it goes to pensioners.
The basic state pension element amounts to 29% of the total £200bn benefits bill.With all the various potential add-ons including pension credits it's still barely 40% (40.86%) so by no means 'most of it' given that 60% is something else.
turbobloke said:
The basic state pension element amounts to 29% of the total £200bn benefits bill.
With all the various potential add-ons including pension credits it's still barely 40% (40.86%) so by no means 'most of it' given that 60% is something else.
The largest single portion goes to pensioners, not sure most of it does. With all the various potential add-ons including pension credits it's still barely 40% (40.86%) so by no means 'most of it' given that 60% is something else.
PS
As you said 'goes to pensioners' rather than specifying pension and pension-related payments, I should add that total benefit payments for elderly people amount to 42.30% of the £200bn benefits bill - but as such, my original comment is still valid as that's not 'most' either.
Anywhichway it's too much overall.
As you said 'goes to pensioners' rather than specifying pension and pension-related payments, I should add that total benefit payments for elderly people amount to 42.30% of the £200bn benefits bill - but as such, my original comment is still valid as that's not 'most' either.
chrisw666 said:
The largest single portion goes to pensioners, not sure most of it does.
Yes benefits to elderly people make up the largest slice in terms of how the total is usually subdivided...that's not quite what was claimed though.Anywhichway it's too much overall.
sfp said:
Caulkhead said:
You appear to have either read the thread and not understood it or not read it.
Allow me to précis - people with private landlords and in receipt of housing benefit have received that benefit directly for years and paid their rent largely without issue. A pilot scheme has been introduced whereby people in social/council housing now also receive their benefit direct rather than it going directly to the landlord and it turns out many are spending it on things other than rent. These are the findings of the landlords, not me.
Which bit don't you understand?
It's really you that doesn't understand it. Private sector landlords receive rent directly if their tenants are deemed 'vulnerable'. They also return to receiving it directly if arrears run to 8 weeks of rent, and after an even shorter period can request the rent is suspended if any non-payment occurs. That (vulnerability) includes very large groups of individuals. Those are the tenants who it's really just silly to give rent directly to. The rest mostly just find it a hassle. Allow me to précis - people with private landlords and in receipt of housing benefit have received that benefit directly for years and paid their rent largely without issue. A pilot scheme has been introduced whereby people in social/council housing now also receive their benefit direct rather than it going directly to the landlord and it turns out many are spending it on things other than rent. These are the findings of the landlords, not me.
Which bit don't you understand?
The core problem is entrusting major welfare reform to people who aren't very bright and don't either listen or consult with the right people.
Those rules about vulnerable tenants and arrears also applied to this pilot - the rules for private landlords have been transferred pretty much wholesale to the social housing sector, yet still the social sector tenants were far more likely to not pay their rent than the private sector ones. It must be a terrible hassle for tenants to have to pay their own rent with the money that is given to them to pay their rent.
The core problem is entrusting the management of social housing with those who aren't very bright and believe budgets are a minor technicality that gets in the way of doing what they want.
turbobloke said:
Deva Link said:
Most of it goes to pensioners.
The basic state pension element amounts to 29% of the total £200bn benefits bill.With all the various potential add-ons including pension credits it's still barely 40% (40.86%) so by no means 'most of it' given that 60% is something else.
Btw iirc rent rebate was paid direct to claimant in the 80s but that was changed for this reason, and fraud. Not sure when, certainly pre-97 I'd think.
Caulkhead said:
No, it's still you.
The core problem is entrusting the management of social housing with those who aren't very bright and believe budgets are a minor technicality that gets in the way of doing what they want.
Sorry. You're right. I must have misunderstood it. I thought these social housing managers thought budgets were critically important to 'doing what they want'. And I thought they were very deeply concerned about the impact on these budgets of a vast reduction in rental income caused by entrusting rent handover to people who weren't wholly capable of handling their own affairs. The core problem is entrusting the management of social housing with those who aren't very bright and believe budgets are a minor technicality that gets in the way of doing what they want.
[working taxpayer] So where has my money gone?[/working taxpayer]
Meanwhile - in 'good news' - drug dealers, off-licenses, bookies and payday loan companies have reported an unexpected surge in business in several areas of the UK...
A HMRC spokesman said, "As a result of this stimulus to the economy and promising increase in business we expect to recoup in the region of £0 back in taxation returns."
Happy days.
Meanwhile - in 'good news' - drug dealers, off-licenses, bookies and payday loan companies have reported an unexpected surge in business in several areas of the UK...
A HMRC spokesman said, "As a result of this stimulus to the economy and promising increase in business we expect to recoup in the region of £0 back in taxation returns."
Happy days.
Sticks. said:
turbobloke said:
Deva Link said:
Most of it goes to pensioners.
The basic state pension element amounts to 29% of the total £200bn benefits bill.With all the various potential add-ons including pension credits it's still barely 40% (40.86%) so by no means 'most of it' given that 60% is something else.
Rovinghawk said:
Deva Link said:
Sweeping generalisation, but if they had anything about them they wouldn't be in social housing and struggling on benefits in the first place.
Or they're smart enough to play the system to maximum effect?RH
0a said:
Rovinghawk said:
Deva Link said:
Sweeping generalisation, but if they had anything about them they wouldn't be in social housing and struggling on benefits in the first place.
Or they're smart enough to play the system to maximum effect?RH
AnonSpoilsport][working taxpayer said:
So where has my money gone?[/working taxpayer]
Meanwhile - in 'good news' - drug dealers, off-licenses, bookies and payday loan companies have reported an unexpected surge in business in several areas of the UK...
A HMRC spokesman said, "As a result of this stimulus to the economy and promising increase in business we expect to recoup in the region of £0 back in taxation returns."
Happy days.
Meanwhile - in 'good news' - drug dealers, off-licenses, bookies and payday loan companies have reported an unexpected surge in business in several areas of the UK...
A HMRC spokesman said, "As a result of this stimulus to the economy and promising increase in business we expect to recoup in the region of £0 back in taxation returns."
Happy days.
The bedroom tax is another loopy lu-lu. Obviously the people in the affected properties will end up unable to afford to pay it so some of them will end up in rent arrear trouble and probably end up joining the other social housing 'direct benefit receiver non-payers' on the eviction lists. Of course, it wouldn't be so bad if there were plenty of social housing 1 bed properties for them to move to, but there aren't. And there won't be. Because the social housing building programmes (about the only remaining building work going on anyway) will be extinguished by the budget crushing deficits caused by the huge rent defaults.So where are they all going to go? Private sector won't be wanting them (too big a rent default risk). So that really leaves (enormously costly) homeless units for some, and the streets (and all the enormous consequential costs of THAT) for the rest.
Meanwhile, who IS going to live in all the gradually emptying larger social housing properties which the previous occupants have been forced to desert? Hmm. Ah yes! Of course! The Roms and Bulgs who are about to descend!! They have nice big families who won't be under occupying these multi-bed
properties, don't they?
Now what's the chances of THEM paying their direct paid (so they can learn responsibility) housing benefit properly rather than spending it on whatever else they like?
On the horizon you can sense a colossal looming cost to the taxpayer of all this 'welfare reform' chaos, can't you? Meanwhile, on with the humiliating show of sending tens of millions of pounds a month of housing benefit from our tax-money directly to drug addicts, alcoholics, criminals and anti socials and other irrresponsibles of a thousand varieties so that they can learn how to control their financial affairs responsibly.
I think IDS needs a hard kick in the balls so HE can learn some financial responsibility with OUR money.
sfp said:
Caulkhead said:
No, it's still you.
The core problem is entrusting the management of social housing with those who aren't very bright and believe budgets are a minor technicality that gets in the way of doing what they want.
Sorry. You're right. I must have misunderstood it. I thought these social housing managers thought budgets were critically important to 'doing what they want'. And I thought they were very deeply concerned about the impact on these budgets of a vast reduction in rental income caused by entrusting rent handover to people who weren't wholly capable of handling their own affairs. The core problem is entrusting the management of social housing with those who aren't very bright and believe budgets are a minor technicality that gets in the way of doing what they want.
turbobloke said:
PS
As you said 'goes to pensioners' rather than specifying pension and pension-related payments, I should add that total benefit payments for elderly people amount to 42.30% of the £200bn benefits bill - but as such, my original comment is still valid as that's not 'most' either.
No - the 42% figure is about right for the state pension alone for 2012/12 - £87Bn out of £208Bn total.As you said 'goes to pensioners' rather than specifying pension and pension-related payments, I should add that total benefit payments for elderly people amount to 42.30% of the £200bn benefits bill - but as such, my original comment is still valid as that's not 'most' either.
Add in significant amounts like pension credit, housing benefit to pensioners and Attendance Allowance, not to mention things like bus passes, free TV licences and winter fuel payments, and it's well past the halfway point.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff