EU Referendum Poll - Final Call
Poll: EU Referendum Poll - Final Call
Total Members Polled: 803
Discussion
John145 said:
lostkiwi said:
John145 said:
The EU is the antipathy of this. The governmental structure of it is closer to autocracy than democracy. This is how the USSR started. History has shown that this method of governance does not work. The demos becomes disenfranchised when they have no say and what happens from there is self evident.
Where people cannot shape their own lives, they do not try.
So which part of the EU structure is autocratic as opposed to being democratically elected either directly or indirectly by representatives of the people?Where people cannot shape their own lives, they do not try.
Each institution is explained here:
http://europa.eu/about-eu/institutions-bodies/
John145 said:
Edit to add:
What mechanism does the EU allow that can allow our government to initiate reform? None.
There's a simple answer, and from this uncomfortable answer follows a number of symptoms.
- Greece still being in the Euro zone
- Massive youth unemployment across the EU
- CAP reforms that were paid for but never delivered
In a democratic society, the demos would not accept this, indeed Greece voted against it but then regime change occurred.
See above but to give another example.What mechanism does the EU allow that can allow our government to initiate reform? None.
There's a simple answer, and from this uncomfortable answer follows a number of symptoms.
- Greece still being in the Euro zone
- Massive youth unemployment across the EU
- CAP reforms that were paid for but never delivered
In a democratic society, the demos would not accept this, indeed Greece voted against it but then regime change occurred.
Edited by John145 on Monday 20th June 13:49
Unemployment in the North of England is much worse than the south. Should the South therefore leave and form its own government independent of the North?
Maybe we should kick parts of the country like the North East and Northern Ireland out as they are dragging us all down.
I formally note the undertaking of each Member State to respect this principle and not to seek to influence Members of the Commission in the performance of their tasks. I further undertake to respect, both during and after my term of office, the obligation arising therefrom, and in particular the duty to behave with integrity and discretion as regards the acceptance, after I have ceased to hold office, of certain appointments or benefits."
You have to love democracy.
Please advise me the democratic method for sacking Jean Claud Junker.
John145 said:
dirty boy said:
Perhaps if there wasn't a referendum pending compromising it? Bit like asking for a pay rise but telling your boss you might leave next week anyway.
Democracies reform through public mandate.Corporations reform due to existential threat.
The EU falls comfortably into the latter.
I'd like some help here. The "Leavers" seem to be a bunch of aggressive knowitalls at the moment.
Is the current situation ideal? No. I'd go as far as to say that I hate the EU telling us what to do, I hate the uncontrolled immigration and I hate the fact that they treat us with utter contempt everytime we ask for anything.
But I'm currently 70/30 in favour of Remain.
Why?
Well I just can't accept that leaving is worth the risk. I'm still open to being convinced otherwise but I can't see it happening at the moment.
What happens when all of the big industry i.e. car manufacturers etc. relocate to mainland Europe, thus decimating the North East and other areas reliant on the local factories? This WILL happen if we leave. Why would you pay the taxes to export to the EU from the UK when it's a much larger market? You wouldn't, you would relocate and send stuff back here instead. That will both weaken the economy and significantly increase the welfare bill.
What happens if Donald Trump gets elected in the USA? He already said that he would expect allies to pay for American protection etc. so we get fleeced by them if we want their military support. If we say no and it all kicks off, what will the EU say to us when we ask for help?
Will we lose free movement within Europe?
Will the SNP automatically declare that whatever the result, it isn't what they wanted?
What is it that people actually think will get better? Everybody must surely accept that the economy will suffer and we will become a much poorer country. Public spending will obviously be cut massively.
We'll no longer have much of a say in world matters.
And we'll have even less chance of winning Eurovision
Is the current situation ideal? No. I'd go as far as to say that I hate the EU telling us what to do, I hate the uncontrolled immigration and I hate the fact that they treat us with utter contempt everytime we ask for anything.
But I'm currently 70/30 in favour of Remain.
Why?
Well I just can't accept that leaving is worth the risk. I'm still open to being convinced otherwise but I can't see it happening at the moment.
What happens when all of the big industry i.e. car manufacturers etc. relocate to mainland Europe, thus decimating the North East and other areas reliant on the local factories? This WILL happen if we leave. Why would you pay the taxes to export to the EU from the UK when it's a much larger market? You wouldn't, you would relocate and send stuff back here instead. That will both weaken the economy and significantly increase the welfare bill.
What happens if Donald Trump gets elected in the USA? He already said that he would expect allies to pay for American protection etc. so we get fleeced by them if we want their military support. If we say no and it all kicks off, what will the EU say to us when we ask for help?
Will we lose free movement within Europe?
Will the SNP automatically declare that whatever the result, it isn't what they wanted?
What is it that people actually think will get better? Everybody must surely accept that the economy will suffer and we will become a much poorer country. Public spending will obviously be cut massively.
We'll no longer have much of a say in world matters.
And we'll have even less chance of winning Eurovision
dirty boy said:
John145 said:
dirty boy said:
Perhaps if there wasn't a referendum pending compromising it? Bit like asking for a pay rise but telling your boss you might leave next week anyway.
Democracies reform through public mandate.Corporations reform due to existential threat.
The EU falls comfortably into the latter.
Westminster in charge of its own destiny is tempered from its worst excesses by knowing we can sack them. I prefer that element of control.
TroubledSoul said:
I'd like some help here. The "Leavers" seem to be a bunch of aggressive knowitalls at the moment.
Is the current situation ideal? No. I'd go as far as to say that I hate the EU telling us what to do, I hate the uncontrolled immigration and I hate the fact that they treat us with utter contempt everytime we ask for anything.
But I'm currently 70/30 in favour of Remain.
Why?
Well I just can't accept that leaving is worth the risk. I'm still open to being convinced otherwise but I can't see it happening at the moment.
What happens when all of the big industry i.e. car manufacturers etc. relocate to mainland Europe, thus decimating the North East and other areas reliant on the local factories? This WILL happen if we leave. Why would you pay the taxes to export to the EU from the UK when it's a much larger market? You wouldn't, you would relocate and send stuff back here instead. That will both weaken the economy and significantly increase the welfare bill.
What happens if Donald Trump gets elected in the USA? He already said that he would expect allies to pay for American protection etc. so we get fleeced by them if we want their military support. If we say no and it all kicks off, what will the EU say to us when we ask for help?
Will we lose free movement within Europe?
Will the SNP automatically declare that whatever the result, it isn't what they wanted?
What is it that people actually think will get better? Everybody must surely accept that the economy will suffer and we will become a much poorer country. Public spending will obviously be cut massively.
We'll no longer have much of a say in world matters.
And we'll have even less chance of winning Eurovision
Just answer the question on the paper. Do you want the UK to remain a member of the (political body known as) the EU? Everything else is a smoke screen and unknowable - single market, immigration, economy, net costs, investment and exchange rates are not on the piece of paper you are putting your mark against.Is the current situation ideal? No. I'd go as far as to say that I hate the EU telling us what to do, I hate the uncontrolled immigration and I hate the fact that they treat us with utter contempt everytime we ask for anything.
But I'm currently 70/30 in favour of Remain.
Why?
Well I just can't accept that leaving is worth the risk. I'm still open to being convinced otherwise but I can't see it happening at the moment.
What happens when all of the big industry i.e. car manufacturers etc. relocate to mainland Europe, thus decimating the North East and other areas reliant on the local factories? This WILL happen if we leave. Why would you pay the taxes to export to the EU from the UK when it's a much larger market? You wouldn't, you would relocate and send stuff back here instead. That will both weaken the economy and significantly increase the welfare bill.
What happens if Donald Trump gets elected in the USA? He already said that he would expect allies to pay for American protection etc. so we get fleeced by them if we want their military support. If we say no and it all kicks off, what will the EU say to us when we ask for help?
Will we lose free movement within Europe?
Will the SNP automatically declare that whatever the result, it isn't what they wanted?
What is it that people actually think will get better? Everybody must surely accept that the economy will suffer and we will become a much poorer country. Public spending will obviously be cut massively.
We'll no longer have much of a say in world matters.
And we'll have even less chance of winning Eurovision
John145 said:
lostkiwi said:
He serves a term of office which expires in 2019 at that point we lobby our representatives not to re-elect him. Please advise of a way we can sack David Cameron before his term is up?
Popular mandate.So, we cannot sack Junker.
And you think that is democracy. Fool.
And how is it different from any of our homegrown politicians?
TroubledSoul said:
I'd like some help here. The "Leavers" seem to be a bunch of aggressive knowitalls at the moment.
Is the current situation ideal? No. I'd go as far as to say that I hate the EU telling us what to do, I hate the uncontrolled immigration and I hate the fact that they treat us with utter contempt everytime we ask for anything.
But I'm currently 70/30 in favour of Remain.
Why?
Well I just can't accept that leaving is worth the risk. I'm still open to being convinced otherwise but I can't see it happening at the moment.
What happens when all of the big industry i.e. car manufacturers etc. relocate to mainland Europe, thus decimating the North East and other areas reliant on the local factories? This WILL happen if we leave. Why would you pay the taxes to export to the EU from the UK when it's a much larger market? You wouldn't, you would relocate and send stuff back here instead. That will both weaken the economy and significantly increase the welfare bill.
What happens if Donald Trump gets elected in the USA? He already said that he would expect allies to pay for American protection etc. so we get fleeced by them if we want their military support. If we say no and it all kicks off, what will the EU say to us when we ask for help?
Will we lose free movement within Europe?
Will the SNP automatically declare that whatever the result, it isn't what they wanted?
What is it that people actually think will get better? Everybody must surely accept that the economy will suffer and we will become a much poorer country. Public spending will obviously be cut massively.
We'll no longer have much of a say in world matters.
And we'll have even less chance of winning Eurovision
You've thought you're in favour of staying so you've just made up a load of stuff and said it will happen so why would anyone vote against it.? Is the current situation ideal? No. I'd go as far as to say that I hate the EU telling us what to do, I hate the uncontrolled immigration and I hate the fact that they treat us with utter contempt everytime we ask for anything.
But I'm currently 70/30 in favour of Remain.
Why?
Well I just can't accept that leaving is worth the risk. I'm still open to being convinced otherwise but I can't see it happening at the moment.
What happens when all of the big industry i.e. car manufacturers etc. relocate to mainland Europe, thus decimating the North East and other areas reliant on the local factories? This WILL happen if we leave. Why would you pay the taxes to export to the EU from the UK when it's a much larger market? You wouldn't, you would relocate and send stuff back here instead. That will both weaken the economy and significantly increase the welfare bill.
What happens if Donald Trump gets elected in the USA? He already said that he would expect allies to pay for American protection etc. so we get fleeced by them if we want their military support. If we say no and it all kicks off, what will the EU say to us when we ask for help?
Will we lose free movement within Europe?
Will the SNP automatically declare that whatever the result, it isn't what they wanted?
What is it that people actually think will get better? Everybody must surely accept that the economy will suffer and we will become a much poorer country. Public spending will obviously be cut massively.
We'll no longer have much of a say in world matters.
And we'll have even less chance of winning Eurovision
That's called confirmation bias.
Perhaps for a moment consider all of those things won't happen and you might understand why people might vote to leave.
TroubledSoul said:
I'd like some help here. The "Leavers" seem to be a bunch of aggressive knowitalls at the moment.
Is the current situation ideal? No. I'd go as far as to say that I hate the EU telling us what to do, I hate the uncontrolled immigration and I hate the fact that they treat us with utter contempt everytime we ask for anything.
But I'm currently 70/30 in favour of Remain.
Why?
Well I just can't accept that leaving is worth the risk. I'm still open to being convinced otherwise but I can't see it happening at the moment.
What happens when all of the big industry i.e. car manufacturers etc. relocate to mainland Europe, thus decimating the North East and other areas reliant on the local factories? This WILL happen if we leave. Why would you pay the taxes to export to the EU from the UK when it's a much larger market? You wouldn't, you would relocate and send stuff back here instead. That will both weaken the economy and significantly increase the welfare bill.
What happens if Donald Trump gets elected in the USA? He already said that he would expect allies to pay for American protection etc. so we get fleeced by them if we want their military support. If we say no and it all kicks off, what will the EU say to us when we ask for help?
Will we lose free movement within Europe?
Will the SNP automatically declare that whatever the result, it isn't what they wanted?
What is it that people actually think will get better? Everybody must surely accept that the economy will suffer and we will become a much poorer country. Public spending will obviously be cut massively.
We'll no longer have much of a say in world matters.
And we'll have even less chance of winning Eurovision
Re: Car industry - same threats were made preEuro. They won't move. It is a lie to say they will move.Is the current situation ideal? No. I'd go as far as to say that I hate the EU telling us what to do, I hate the uncontrolled immigration and I hate the fact that they treat us with utter contempt everytime we ask for anything.
But I'm currently 70/30 in favour of Remain.
Why?
Well I just can't accept that leaving is worth the risk. I'm still open to being convinced otherwise but I can't see it happening at the moment.
What happens when all of the big industry i.e. car manufacturers etc. relocate to mainland Europe, thus decimating the North East and other areas reliant on the local factories? This WILL happen if we leave. Why would you pay the taxes to export to the EU from the UK when it's a much larger market? You wouldn't, you would relocate and send stuff back here instead. That will both weaken the economy and significantly increase the welfare bill.
What happens if Donald Trump gets elected in the USA? He already said that he would expect allies to pay for American protection etc. so we get fleeced by them if we want their military support. If we say no and it all kicks off, what will the EU say to us when we ask for help?
Will we lose free movement within Europe?
Will the SNP automatically declare that whatever the result, it isn't what they wanted?
What is it that people actually think will get better? Everybody must surely accept that the economy will suffer and we will become a much poorer country. Public spending will obviously be cut massively.
We'll no longer have much of a say in world matters.
And we'll have even less chance of winning Eurovision
I went to Dubai 2 weeks ago, no VISA required. That's the Middle East for Christ sake, there will be no VISA requirement for Europe.
SNP are anti-Westminster, they will say anything that undermines them.
Lots of things will get better:
- Fairer immigration that is set by the state and private sector demands
- More democracy to the people, reinvigorate the next generation about reform and improve the accessibility of the people who make our laws
- Quicker and more favourable access to more of the worlds markets which will reduce prices and also promote the development of the developing world
- A dynamic government that can respond to the world at the world's pace
- A beacon to lead the world in social justice (as the UK has always done)
- A safer future not at risk from an anti-democratic government
lostkiwi said:
John145 said:
lostkiwi said:
He serves a term of office which expires in 2019 at that point we lobby our representatives not to re-elect him. Please advise of a way we can sack David Cameron before his term is up?
Popular mandate.So, we cannot sack Junker.
And you think that is democracy. Fool.
And how is it different from any of our homegrown politicians?
The UK's government is so damn simple in comparison.
We have the head of state, the Queen. She employs a government to enact the will of the people.
The Government is elected in a first past the post system. These MPs propose, edit and retract less than 50% of our laws (I'd prefer 100%). Before they become law the House of Lords can block them.
The HoL is no democratically elected - but they cannot make, edit or retract laws. They can only block laws coming in (which they do rarely).
Can you please summarise how the EU works in 6 sentences?
John145 said:
Lots of things will get better:
- Fairer immigration that is set by the state and private sector demands
- More democracy to the people, reinvigorate the next generation about reform and improve the accessibility of the people who make our laws
- Quicker and more favourable access to more of the worlds markets which will reduce prices and also promote the development of the developing world
- A dynamic government that can respond to the world at the world's pace
- A beacon to lead the world in social justice (as the UK has always done)
- A safer future not at risk from an anti-democratic government
But these things are as likely as the bad things I mentioned. They are "it would be nice if...." sort of things and obviously the potential is there for them to come to fruition, but the fact is we cannot say for sure that they will. - Fairer immigration that is set by the state and private sector demands
- More democracy to the people, reinvigorate the next generation about reform and improve the accessibility of the people who make our laws
- Quicker and more favourable access to more of the worlds markets which will reduce prices and also promote the development of the developing world
- A dynamic government that can respond to the world at the world's pace
- A beacon to lead the world in social justice (as the UK has always done)
- A safer future not at risk from an anti-democratic government
That's a worry.
We will also be massively affected by the behaviour of the single market and the shared currency, whether we are in or out.
I'm voting for Brexit. It's nothing to do with the economy.
I might have been persuaded to remain if DC had come back with anything meaningful, but he came back with virtually nothing at all.
I might have been persuaded to remain if we didn't have to give away the final decision on matters of law to Brussels.
I might have been persuaded to remain if there had been an agreed plan to restrict migration to those who met a points-scored criteria of need for the country
As those things haven't happened I'm out.
I might have been persuaded to remain if DC had come back with anything meaningful, but he came back with virtually nothing at all.
I might have been persuaded to remain if we didn't have to give away the final decision on matters of law to Brussels.
I might have been persuaded to remain if there had been an agreed plan to restrict migration to those who met a points-scored criteria of need for the country
As those things haven't happened I'm out.
Voted already (postal)
Fed up of the pathetic arguments both ways, I have used my brain, looked at my business, reviewed the stuff I did in economics.
My decision hasn't changed, I just have even less respect for the political sound bite merchants and single issue hard of thinking, than I had before
Fed up of the pathetic arguments both ways, I have used my brain, looked at my business, reviewed the stuff I did in economics.
My decision hasn't changed, I just have even less respect for the political sound bite merchants and single issue hard of thinking, than I had before
Robertj21a said:
I'm voting for Brexit. It's nothing to do with the economy.
I might have been persuaded to remain if DC had come back with anything meaningful, but he came back with virtually nothing at all.
I might have been persuaded to remain if we didn't have to give away the final decision on matters of law to Brussels.
I might have been persuaded to remain if there had been an agreed plan to restrict migration to those who met a points-scored criteria of need for the country
As those things haven't happened I'm out.
Yep. +1I might have been persuaded to remain if DC had come back with anything meaningful, but he came back with virtually nothing at all.
I might have been persuaded to remain if we didn't have to give away the final decision on matters of law to Brussels.
I might have been persuaded to remain if there had been an agreed plan to restrict migration to those who met a points-scored criteria of need for the country
As those things haven't happened I'm out.
TroubledSoul said:
What happens when all of the big industry i.e. car manufacturers etc. relocate to mainland Europe, thus decimating the North East and other areas reliant on the local factories? This WILL happen if we leave.
The opposite is more likely.Take the German manufacturers, for example.
They export twice as many cars to the UK as we export to them. If we Brexit without a trade deal, then cars made in Germany will attract an import duty of 10%.
BMW would have to either accept the 10% levy, or they could increase production here. Which do you think is more likely?
don4l said:
The opposite is more likely.
Take the German manufacturers, for example.
They export twice as many cars to the UK as we export to them. If we Brexit without a trade deal, then cars made in Germany will attract an import duty of 10%.
BMW would have to either accept the 10% levy, or they could increase production here. Which do you think is more likely?
Valid point, but what about the Japanese manufacturers? Take the German manufacturers, for example.
They export twice as many cars to the UK as we export to them. If we Brexit without a trade deal, then cars made in Germany will attract an import duty of 10%.
BMW would have to either accept the 10% levy, or they could increase production here. Which do you think is more likely?
lostkiwi said:
John145 said:
lostkiwi said:
He serves a term of office which expires in 2019 at that point we lobby our representatives not to re-elect him. Please advise of a way we can sack David Cameron before his term is up?
Popular mandate.So, we cannot sack Junker.
And you think that is democracy. Fool.
And how is it different from any of our homegrown politicians?
Where's the democracy ?
TroubledSoul said:
I'd like some help here. The "Leavers" seem to be a bunch of aggressive knowitalls at the moment.
Is the current situation ideal? No. I'd go as far as to say that I hate the EU telling us what to do, I hate the uncontrolled immigration and I hate the fact that they treat us with utter contempt everytime we ask for anything.
But I'm currently 70/30 in favour of Remain.
Why?
Well I just can't accept that leaving is worth the risk. I'm still open to being convinced otherwise but I can't see it happening at the moment.
What happens when all of the big industry i.e. car manufacturers etc. relocate to mainland Europe, thus decimating the North East and other areas reliant on the local factories? This WILL happen if we leave. Why would you pay the taxes to export to the EU from the UK when it's a much larger market? You wouldn't, you would relocate and send stuff back here instead. That will both weaken the economy and significantly increase the welfare bill.
What happens if Donald Trump gets elected in the USA? He already said that he would expect allies to pay for American protection etc. so we get fleeced by them if we want their military support. If we say no and it all kicks off, what will the EU say to us when we ask for help?
Will we lose free movement within Europe?
Will the SNP automatically declare that whatever the result, it isn't what they wanted?
What is it that people actually think will get better? Everybody must surely accept that the economy will suffer and we will become a much poorer country. Public spending will obviously be cut massively.
We'll no longer have much of a say in world matters.
And we'll have even less chance of winning Eurovision
You're making the mistake that a lot of people are making, that is thinking the EU is the be all and end all of our export markets. It isn't. As a whole it takes less than half of our exports and the proportion is diminishing.Is the current situation ideal? No. I'd go as far as to say that I hate the EU telling us what to do, I hate the uncontrolled immigration and I hate the fact that they treat us with utter contempt everytime we ask for anything.
But I'm currently 70/30 in favour of Remain.
Why?
Well I just can't accept that leaving is worth the risk. I'm still open to being convinced otherwise but I can't see it happening at the moment.
What happens when all of the big industry i.e. car manufacturers etc. relocate to mainland Europe, thus decimating the North East and other areas reliant on the local factories? This WILL happen if we leave. Why would you pay the taxes to export to the EU from the UK when it's a much larger market? You wouldn't, you would relocate and send stuff back here instead. That will both weaken the economy and significantly increase the welfare bill.
What happens if Donald Trump gets elected in the USA? He already said that he would expect allies to pay for American protection etc. so we get fleeced by them if we want their military support. If we say no and it all kicks off, what will the EU say to us when we ask for help?
Will we lose free movement within Europe?
Will the SNP automatically declare that whatever the result, it isn't what they wanted?
What is it that people actually think will get better? Everybody must surely accept that the economy will suffer and we will become a much poorer country. Public spending will obviously be cut massively.
We'll no longer have much of a say in world matters.
And we'll have even less chance of winning Eurovision
Even if tariffs have to be applied to our exports to the EU, and it's not at all clear that they will, that will be mitigated by free trade deals with other countries enabling us to sell into them tariff-free.
I can't remember what it was I was listening to, it may have been the BBC World News, but they were reporting on Asian markets a few days ago, and there was a chap reporting saying that there are Asian countries lining up to do trade deals with the UK if we leave. That is what we ought to be doing. That is where the growth is, not Europe.
Another point that is often missed is that EU tariffs are applied to what we import from the rest of the world. We could remove those and thus get cheaper goods, food, clothing, etc, from outside the EU. Granted, that may be set against a weaker pound, but the pound won't stay weak forever.
TroubledSoul said:
don4l said:
The opposite is more likely.
Take the German manufacturers, for example.
They export twice as many cars to the UK as we export to them. If we Brexit without a trade deal, then cars made in Germany will attract an import duty of 10%.
BMW would have to either accept the 10% levy, or they could increase production here. Which do you think is more likely?
Valid point, but what about the Japanese manufacturers? Take the German manufacturers, for example.
They export twice as many cars to the UK as we export to them. If we Brexit without a trade deal, then cars made in Germany will attract an import duty of 10%.
BMW would have to either accept the 10% levy, or they could increase production here. Which do you think is more likely?
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