NO JAB NO JOB

[Boringvolvodriver]

CraigyMc said:

The human trials started in April 2020.

Out of interest, how long would there need to be data for, in order for you to be happy with that aspect of this?

The trial at the moment is due to end 31 Jan 2023 so by then there will be a lot more data available to assess the risk. Right now, in the UK there have been IIRC about 50,000 reports of adverse affects with a total of 150,000 actual events (some people had more than one) so with say 15m vaccinations. So that is 0.33% having an adverse effect compared to the flu one which in 2011(onky date I found easily) of 0.004%.

Also 323 reported deaths compared to 10 with the flu vaccine on 10m.

[CraigyMc]

Boringvolvodriver said:

The trial at the moment is due to end 31 Jan 2023 so by then there will be a lot more data available to assess the risk. Right now, in the UK there have been IIRC about 50,000 reports of adverse affects with a total of 150,000 actual events (some people had more than one) so with say 15m vaccinations. So that is 0.33% having an adverse effect compared to the flu one which in 2011(onky date I found easily) of 0.004%.

Also 323 reported deaths compared to 10 with the flu vaccine on 10m.

Of the reported deaths, how many are attributed to the C19 vaccines?

Edited to add, if the vaccine actually did kill 323 people out of 15m (and we both know it didn't), you should get the vaccine. The death rate would be 0.002% which compared extremely favourably with C19.

Edited by CraigyMc on Monday 22 February 19:29

[Cold]

Is it just the CV19 vaccine that companies are looking forward to discriminating about or will they suddenly become concerned about other, more serious, illness vaccinations?

Will we have to approach our GP for proof of MMR just to go to the cinema?

[anonymous-user]

Well looks like Boris has just mentioned vaccine passports might be likely for foreign travel and that they’re going to have a conversation about their domestic use.

[Gadgetmac]

Boringvolvodriver said:

Also 323 reported deaths compared to 10 with the flu vaccine on 10m.

Are you still spreading this absolute garbage? Jeez.

[Lily the Pink]

otolith said:

g4ry13 said:

otolith said:

If I found I'd employed the sort of person who would refuse the jab, I'd have to question my recruitment policy in general.

If you're in the market for people who aren't able to think critically then you're correct.

There are a number of reasons for vaccine hesitancy. Critical thinking ability is not one of them.

Come off it - you're being disingenuous (at best). What you really mean is that you only want to employ people who think the same as you. A recipe for mediocrity rather than success, but understandable - particularly amongst those who lack critical thinking ability.

[CraigyMc]

Lily the Pink said:

otolith said:

g4ry13 said:

otolith said:

If I found I'd employed the sort of person who would refuse the jab, I'd have to question my recruitment policy in general.

If you're in the market for people who aren't able to think critically then you're correct.

There are a number of reasons for vaccine hesitancy. Critical thinking ability is not one of them.

Come off it - you're being disingenuous (at best). What you really mean is that you only want to employ people who think the same as you. A recipe for mediocrity rather than success, but understandable - particularly amongst those who lack critical thinking ability.

Would you employ someone who was quite open about utter, steadfast belief in voodoo?

There's alternative thinking, then there's dissociated with reality. It's really up to the employer to decide where the line they are willing to draw is.

[98elise]

Lily the Pink said:

98elise said:

A bit like now

Red list travel to the UK said:

You must have proof of a negative coronavirus test to travel to the UK - even if you’re a UK citizen.

If your test result is positive you must not travel. You must follow the local coronavirus rules and guidance.

The test must be taken in the 3 days before you depart. The results must be in English, French or Spanish.

You’ll need to show the test results when you check in to travel or board your plane, train or ferry. You may also be asked to show them when you arrive.

So do you expect that to change at some point to allow for vaccination status to remove the need for such tests ?

No I don't expect it at all. The question is about what can or cannot be done, not what I think will be done.

[Boringvolvodriver]

Gadgetmac said:

Boringvolvodriver said:

Also 323 reported deaths compared to 10 with the flu vaccine on 10m.

Are you still spreading this absolute garbage? Jeez.

Ok - so why does it mention the deaths on here then

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

[anonymous-user]

CraigyMc said:

purplepenguin said:

otolith said:

If I found I'd employed the sort of person who would refuse the jab, I'd have to question my recruitment policy in general.

Would you get rid of that employee though?

Ooh, can I answer this one?
It's entirely feasible I'd ask some more questions subtly over a period of time to gauge the individual's grip on reality.

• Do you believe intelligent aliens live among us?
• What do you think of 5G?
• What have the illuminati been up to recently?

Just to understand the individual's perceptual universe, figure out how their bullstometer is tuned.

It was a reasonable question about a scenario that could arise.

Do you want to try a reasonable answer?

[Taylor James]

CraigyMc said:

Lily the Pink said:

otolith said:

g4ry13 said:

otolith said:

If I found I'd employed the sort of person who would refuse the jab, I'd have to question my recruitment policy in general.

If you're in the market for people who aren't able to think critically then you're correct.

There are a number of reasons for vaccine hesitancy. Critical thinking ability is not one of them.

Come off it - you're being disingenuous (at best). What you really mean is that you only want to employ people who think the same as you. A recipe for mediocrity rather than success, but understandable - particularly amongst those who lack critical thinking ability.

Would you employ someone who was quite open about utter, steadfast belief in voodoo?

There's alternative thinking, then there's dissociated with reality. It's really up to the employer to decide where the line they are willing to draw is.

Quality.

[Welshbeef]

El stovey said:

Well looks like Boris has just mentioned vaccine passports might be likely for foreign travel and that they’re going to have a conversation about their domestic use.

Greece has already stated to enter their country a vaccine passport/certificate will be needed. A few weeks ago Spain voiced it too.

As such if you want to travel overseas passport vaccine will be needed. If you don’t want to travel then maybe your ok with staying in the U.K.

I wonder how this will impact people with medical conditions who cannot have the vaccine

[98elise]

CrutyRammers said:

Taylor James said:

98elise said:

Taylor James said:

98elise said:

Taylor James said:

98elise said:

Lily the Pink said:

98elise said:

Vaccination isn't a protected characteristic.

Just picking up on this, with a genuine question. Is an employer or service provider allowed to demand knowledge of any/all aspects of the health of an employee or customer ?

I've certainly had medical checks required as a condition of employment. It's ranged from a full medical, to drugs tests (including the option to test at random). No test, no job.

How about full access to your medical records so I can see if you have ever consulted the doctor with psychological issues or erectile dysfunction?

When I was in the Navy they had exactly that.

Fine. How about if you were working in a DIY store. That would be ok?

They can ask. I might not agree with it, and they might not offer me a job on that basis.

Some jobs require very intrusive questioning, and access to all sorts of stuff you wouldn't normally give to an employer. You don't have to agree, but you won't get the job.

Yes, some jobs do. The vast majority don't. An employer cannot ask any question they like without adequate justification and refuse to interview applicants let alone employ them.

Yes, it's about being proportional and reasonable. An employer cannot blanket ask to see everyone's full medical record, and discriminate on that basis, unless there is a good reason to do so. Serving on a warship or flying a fighter or working in an operating theatre are different to being a plumber or sitting in an office.

Is this a hard concept? It doesn't seem so.

Rather coincidentally I've been in a role that involved sitting in an office block, and occasionally unblocking toilets (Facilities Management), but everyone had to undergo a rigorous and intrusive security check due to the clients business. It didn't matter of you were senior management or just someone emptied the bins, no check no job.

[JuanCarlosFandango]

otolith said:

g4ry13 said:

otolith said:

If I found I'd employed the sort of person who would refuse the jab, I'd have to question my recruitment policy in general.

If you're in the market for people who aren't able to think critically then you're correct.

There are a number of reasons for vaccine hesitancy. Critical thinking ability is not one of them.

So when you're in the market to hire an expert on infectious respiratory diseases with strong critical thinking abilities it's out with Drs Mike Yeadon, Sucharit Bakhdee and John Iaonnidis and welcome aboard Gary Linnekar

[CraigyMc]

Boringvolvodriver said:

Gadgetmac said:

Boringvolvodriver said:

Also 323 reported deaths compared to 10 with the flu vaccine on 10m.

Are you still spreading this absolute garbage? Jeez.

Ok - so why does it mention the deaths on here then

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

Explained in section 4 of https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronav...

gov.uk said:

4. Conclusion
At the time of this report, more than 114,000 people in the UK have died within 28 days of a positive test for coronavirus. Rates of infection and hospitalisation with COVID-19 remain high.

Vaccination is the single most effective way to reduce deaths and severe illness from COVID-19. A national immunisation campaign has been underway since early December 2020.

In clinical trials, the Pfizer/BioNTech and Oxford University/AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccines have demonstrated very high levels of protection against symptomatic infection. We expect data to be available soon on the impact of the vaccination campaign in reducing infections and illness with COVID-19 in the UK.

All vaccines and medicines have some side effects. These side effects need to be continuously balanced against the expected benefits in preventing illness.

Following widespread use of these vaccines across the UK, the vast majority of suspected adverse reaction reports so far confirm the safety profile seen in clinical trials. Most reports relate to injection site reactions (sore arm for example) and generalised symptoms such as a ‘flu-like’ illness, headache, chills, fatigue, nausea, fever, dizziness, weakness, aching muscles, and rapid heartbeat. Generally, these reactions are not associated with more serious illness and likely reflect an expected, normal immune response to the vaccines.

Following very substantial exposure across the UK population, no other new safety concerns have been identified from reports received to date, and for the cases of other medical conditions reported in temporal association with vaccination, the available evidence does not currently suggest that the vaccine caused the event.

The overall safety experience with both vaccines is so far as expected from the clinical trials. The expected benefits of the vaccines in preventing COVID-19 and serious complications associated with COVID-19 far outweigh any currently known side effects. As with all vaccines and medicines, the safety of COVID-19 vaccines is a continuously monitored and benefits and possible risks remain under review.

We take every report of a suspected ADR seriously and encourage everyone to report through the Yellow Card scheme.

[anonymous-user]

CraigyMc said:

Lily the Pink said:

otolith said:

g4ry13 said:

otolith said:

If I found I'd employed the sort of person who would refuse the jab, I'd have to question my recruitment policy in general.

If you're in the market for people who aren't able to think critically then you're correct.

There are a number of reasons for vaccine hesitancy. Critical thinking ability is not one of them.

Come off it - you're being disingenuous (at best). What you really mean is that you only want to employ people who think the same as you. A recipe for mediocrity rather than success, but understandable - particularly amongst those who lack critical thinking ability.

Would you employ someone who was quite open about utter, steadfast belief in voodoo?

There's alternative thinking, then there's dissociated with reality. It's really up to the employer to decide where the line they are willing to draw is.

Similar to employing someone who believes in God. If they can do the job, then why not employ them?

Discrimination law might have some input to the employers decision

[NDA]

Could the issue be that employers are obliged to ensure the safety of their employees? This is less of a moral issue and more of a legal one I would have thought.

[Cold]

Welshbeef said:

El stovey said:

Well looks like Boris has just mentioned vaccine passports might be likely for foreign travel and that they’re going to have a conversation about their domestic use.

Greece has already stated to enter their country a vaccine passport/certificate will be needed. A few weeks ago Spain voiced it too.

As such if you want to travel overseas passport vaccine will be needed. If you don’t want to travel then maybe your ok with staying in the U.K.

I wonder how this will impact people with medical conditions who cannot have the vaccine

Not sure I'd want to go to anywhere in Europe right now. It seems to be riddled with a virus. I think I'll wait until they've got a hold on the situation.

[otolith]

Lily the Pink said:

otolith said:

g4ry13 said:

otolith said:

If I found I'd employed the sort of person who would refuse the jab, I'd have to question my recruitment policy in general.

If you're in the market for people who aren't able to think critically then you're correct.

There are a number of reasons for vaccine hesitancy. Critical thinking ability is not one of them.

Come off it - you're being disingenuous (at best). What you really mean is that you only want to employ people who think the same as you. A recipe for mediocrity rather than success, but understandable - particularly amongst those who lack critical thinking ability.

Nope.

I don't want people who have a tendency to assume knowledge about things they are ignorant of.
I don't want people who think that believing a random YouTuber over the body of scientific opinion is "critical thinking".
I don't want people who think that their contrarianism is proof of their superiority.
I don't want people who prefer their feelings to evidence.
I don't want people who are innumerate or just a bit thick.
I don't want people who have no social conscience.

That doesn't leave many antivax people.

[anonymous-user]

NDA said:

Could the issue be that employers are obliged to ensure the safety of their employees? This is less of a moral issue and more of a legal one I would have thought.

That’s possible I suppose. The lawyers will have a field day.

Not sure if the health and safety at work act covers vaccinations that are not specifically required for a certain role (hep B)

If you extend the thinking then everyone should have the flu vaccine to “protect” their employees - where do you draw the line?