The U.S.A. Mass Shootings Thread

[ZedLeg]

J4CKO said:

It is weird though, bet if you asked most Americans what is the biggest threat to them, it would be something like Islamic terrorism, not Cleetus going postal at the mall, road safety, inequality in health provision, ropey diet, drugs or dangerous dogs.

Much like here, the biggest threat isn't our broken parliament, dying NHS, run down national utilities. It's brown people coming here in small boats.

[The Hypno-Toad]

J4CKO said:

It is weird though, bet if you asked most Americans what is the biggest threat to them, it would be something like Islamic terrorism, not Cleetus going postal at the mall, road safety, inequality in health provision, ropey diet, drugs or dangerous dogs.

Nope. Its the New World Order/UN/Illuminati/One World Government coming to take away their guns.

Basically they must have guns in order to stop people taking away their guns.

[Kowalski655]

fatbutt said:

Scary to think he believes god chose him for the job.

Then, for someone able to create an entire universe, god is clearly a fking idiot

[dvs_dave]

Byker28i said:

Not allowed into a halloween party, go get yer gun... 15 shot in Chicago

https://abc7chicago.com/chicago-shooting-lawndale-...

Black neighborhood, so sadly people give even less of a st as its business as usual for such areas.

[CT05 Nose Cone]

This video came up in my timeline, a TED talk by the mother of one of the Columbine shooters. In short, she still blames everyone and everything else aside from her own bad parenting.



I remember how shocking this was at the time, how it got blanket media coverage. It could have been a never again moment, but it was far easier to blame video games and Marilyn Manson than take any form of responsibility. So now the only thing remarkable about it was the fact there were two perpetrators.

[captain_cynic]

CT05 Nose Cone said:

This video came up in my timeline, a TED talk by the mother of one of the Columbine shooters. In short, she still blames everyone and everything else aside from her own bad parenting.



I remember how shocking this was at the time, how it got blanket media coverage. It could have been a never again moment, but it was far easier to blame video games and Marilyn Manson than take any form of responsibility. So now the only thing remarkable about it was the fact there were two perpetrators.

To be fair, it's not just her, its the entirety of American society that creates these people, the NRA that enables them, weapons that let them reach astronomical body counts. No doubt the mother is as sick as they come, utterly self deluded but the entire society that sees "thoughts and prayers" as more effective than gun control is completely wrong in the head.

Some interesting numbers.

Columbine 1999: Harris and Kiebold were armed with:
- Intratec TEC-9 9mm SMG (semi auto).
- Hi-Point 995 Carbine (9mm semi auto)
- Savage 67H pump-action shotgun
- Stevens 311D double barreled sawed-off shotgun
- 99 explosives
- 4 knives
Had detailed plans, pre-planted explosives.
- 13 fatalities (not including the perpertrators).
- 24 wounded.

University of Texas tower shooting 1966: Charles Whitman, a marine veteran opened up from a prepared position in a tower of the University of Texas in Austin. He was armed with:
- Remington 700 ADL (6 mm)
- Universal M1 carbine
- Remington Model 141 (.35-caliber)
- Sears Model 60 Semi-automatic shotgun (12 gauge)
- S&W Model 19 (.357 Magnum)
- Luger P08 (9 mm)
- Galesi-Brescia pistol (.25 ACP)
- Machete
He killed 18 and wounded 31 in 96 minutes.

Lewistown 2023: Robert Card II was believed to have used a Rugar SFAR (.308) AR-10 pattern assault rifle.
Killed: 18
Wounded: 13

Sandy Hook 2012: Adam Lanza was armed with:
- Bushmaster XM15-E2S (AR-15 pattern rifle)
- Glock 20SF handgun
- .22LR Savage Mark II bolt-action rifle[4]
He killed 27 and injured 2.

When assault rifles are used, shootings became faster and deadlier with more people killed than injured. Until the US is willing to admit that basic fact, the killings will continue.

[MKnight702]

captain_cynic said:

When assault rifles are used, shootings became faster and deadlier with more people killed than injured. Until the US is willing to admit that basic fact, the killings will continue.

But none of the firearms used in any of your examples are "Assault Rifles" per the definition that you posted a link to. The first sentence is "An assault rifle is a select fire rifle" all the rifles in your example are semi automatic, none are capable of fully automatic fire. The much hated AR-15 fires the same cartridge as the military M4 "assault rifle" and looks similar but looking like something else does not make it the same.

[djc206]

deadtom said:

Gary C said:

djc206 said:

Finished the day on 7. 5 dead, 58 injured and untold numbers forever scarred by their experience. Bonkers.

I know its inappropriate

but 7.5 dead ?

Was one a Mr Schrodinger ?

That's how I read it the first time too, I had to go back and read it slowly a couple of times.

7 mass shootings in a day, is that a record?

I can see why I read like that. You’d really hope they’ve not gone above that before but I wouldn’t want to bet on it

[Mortarboard]

MKnight702 said:

captain_cynic said:

When assault rifles are used, shootings became faster and deadlier with more people killed than injured. Until the US is willing to admit that basic fact, the killings will continue.

But none of the firearms used in any of your examples are "Assault Rifles" per the definition that you posted a link to. The first sentence is "An assault rifle is a select fire rifle" all the rifles in your example are semi automatic, none are capable of fully automatic fire. The much hated AR-15 fires the same cartridge as the military M4 "assault rifle" and looks similar but looking like something else does not make it the same.

Yet AR-15 style rifles result in mass casualties the vast majority of the time. You're being disingenuous with your "but it's not an assault rifle"
Case in point, with the ban on semi-auto rifles in place, mass shootings dropped. Fancy that, eh?

M.

[Voldemort]

djc206 said:

deadtom said:

Gary C said:

djc206 said:

Finished the day on 7. 5 dead, 58 injured and untold numbers forever scarred by their experience. Bonkers.

I know its inappropriate

but 7.5 dead ?

Was one a Mr Schrodinger ?

That's how I read it the first time too, I had to go back and read it slowly a couple of times.

7 mass shootings in a day, is that a record?

I can see why I read like that. You’d really hope they’ve not gone above that before but I wouldn’t want to bet on it

Not even the best (so far) this year. July 5th had 9 mass shootings. I cba to check on other years.

[smithyithy]

Unfortunately I think the assault rifle / weapon scenario won't solve the situation over there, whether they're banned under some definition or not..

I saw a YouTube video recently about the popularity of Glock 'switches' over there, particularly in inner-city / gang areas. Glocks are already very common over there and these switches are essentially just a trigger modification that makes them full-automatic, meaning they can empty a clip of 9mm bullets in a couple of seconds. It's bad enough when gang members are using them to fire blindly at rivals in the street but I'd dread to think what something like would do to a classroom in the wrong hands.

I do think a good start would be restricting these effectively military spec rifles but the root issue will always be a social and psychological one. They like to turn the issue back at us when we mention gun control and they respond with 'knife crime', ignoring that that is also higher per capita in the US than UK.

They're just more 'killy' as a society, plain and simple.

[Mortarboard]

Re:"switches"
Useful only in a showy, wannabee gangsta way.

Fir killing large groups of people, you want capacity/speed/accuracy.

Hence the AR-15.

Also popular because it gives the insecure gravy seals a semi.

M.

[captain_cynic]

MKnight702 said:

But none of the firearms used in any of your examples are "Assault Rifles" per the definition that you posted a link to. The first sentence is "An assault rifle is a select fire rifle" all the rifles in your example are semi automatic, none are capable of fully automatic fire. The much hated AR-15 fires the same cartridge as the military M4 "assault rifle" and looks similar but looking like something else does not make it the same.

Yes, they are.

This is standard gun but propaganda. Trying to change definitions when facts don't suit their needs.

AR-10 and AR-15 pattern rifles are assault rifles as they're self loading with a detachable box magazine. They don't have to be using a 5.56mm cartridge. Some will be using .22, others .303. The cartridge size is not the single defining attribute.

Loads of assault rifles have used full sized rifle cartridges. From the old FN FAL to the modern SCAR.

[captain_cynic]

Mortarboard said:

Re:"switches"
Useful only in a showy, wannabee gangsta way.

Fir killing large groups of people, you want capacity/speed/accuracy.

Hence the AR-15.

Also popular because it gives the insecure gravy seals a semi.

M.

The Colombine shooters has the "in popular media" gun of the day, the TEC-9, best supporting actor in every 90s "gangsta" movie.

Even with almost 100 explosive devices and a detailed attack plan killed fewer people than a single unhinged guy waling into a restaurant with an unmodified AR-15 pattern rifle.

Saying an assault rifle ban is pointles is assinine. It won't change things overnight but it will over time.

[FourWheelDrift]

tangerine_sedge said:

fatbutt said:

Blib said:

Scary to think he believes god chose him for the job.

What I love about the US is the separation of state and religion /sarcasm.

Can you imagine the outcry if this was a picture of a mosque?

Some mad man has put up a cross - https://youtu.be/-UKZaHCshnY?t=32

[GliderRider]

With something like 390 million privately held firearms in the USA, how many would an absolute ban actually remove?
Say the punishment for being found to still have one was life imprisonment, the likelihood is some would still take the chance of keeping their guns, burying them on their land bricking them up in a wall or whatever. If 0.25% of the guns were not handed in, that still leaves 975,000 firearms in private hands.

Removing legally-held guns in the UK was relatively easy, as they were not permitted, in recent times, anyway, for personal protection. In the USA, firstly the mindset needs to change to educate that a gun on the property is a danger not a protection, then that hunting weapons should be that and that alone.

An interesting statistic would be to know how many shots were actually fired by the various mass-killing perpetrators in relation to the number of victims injured or killed. In many cases the number killed or injured seem relatively low given the duration that the shootings went on for and how many people were in the locations in which they occurred. Clearly when the event occurred at close range, even a highly-stressed non-marksman is likely to have shots that find the target, whereas the high vantage point shooter needs to be calm enough and skilled enough to take an accurate shot.

[deadtom]

MKnight702 said:

But none of the firearms used in any of your examples are "Assault Rifles" per the definition that you posted a link to. The first sentence is "An assault rifle is a select fire rifle" all the rifles in your example are semi automatic, none are capable of fully automatic fire. The much hated AR-15 fires the same cartridge as the military M4 "assault rifle" and looks similar but looking like something else does not make it the same.

I think distilling it down to very few definitive features or functions overlooks the bigger picture though. It's a point I tried to make earlier in the thread but didn't want to go too deeply into it for various reasons, but while an AR-15 that is semi auto only is not an assault rifle by the strict definition, the list of things that it does still share with assault rifles is rather longer than the things it doesn't:

Shares with a true assault rifle:
- fires a high energy, high velocity round that is particularly good at defeating body armour / shooting through doors, walls, unarmoured vehicles
- magazine fed; you can fire 30 times without having to reload. Magazines are a compact convenient shape to carry lots of. One person can carry hundreds of rounds with relative ease
- rail system; you can mount all kinds of clever sight systems to it, particularly red dot sights which are ideal for rapid target acquisition at short ranges
- sliding shoulder stock; means you can use the same weapon in all sorts of scenarios; with or without body armour / webbing / rucksack, inside or outside of vehicles and other confined spaces, whether you're prone, kneeling, standing, on your side
- pistol style grip; makes it much easier to hold the rifle in a variety of positions for when you need to shoot things that are above you / below you / around a corner, much easier to run and be mobile with a pistol grip+sliding stock than a traditional rifle stock
- complete wrap around foregrip; no burning your hands on the barrel when firing lots of rounds in quick succession
- flash hider; doubles as a quick detach suppressor mount so you can choose between being stealthier or more manoeuvrable
- shoulder stock inline with barrel; reduces muzzle climb when firing rapidly
- available in a variety of barrel lengths depending on whether you want it to be lighter and compact to shoot multiple targets at short range or longer but more accurate for long range shooting. Barrel can be changed independently of the rest of the weapon so you can adapt to either without needing a whole second rifle.
- will fire as fast as you can pull the trigger; several rounds per second
- dark, matte colours to make it harder to spot if you're trying to not be seen

Does not share with a true assault rifle:
- selective fire
- harder (but not impossible, you just need an adaptor) to fit a bayonet

I think it also worth noting that as a soldier you are told to only use automatic fire to suppress the enemy; that is to keep them hiding in cover so that they can't shoot you first.

If you air shooting to kill, you use semi auto.

[deadtom]

I feel like a stuck record, but I think it is disingenuous that people keep saying 'oh they're not really assault rifles, they just look like one' as if it's similar to, for a car forum relative example, a real M3 vs 318d with M Sport trim.

An AR-15 is the same as a true assault rifle in all the ways that matter when it comes to killing lots of people as quickly as possible.

[tangerine_sedge]

deadtom said:

I feel like a stuck record, but I think it is disingenuous that people keep saying 'oh they're not really assault rifles, they just look like one' as if it's similar to, for a car forum relative example, a real M3 vs 318d with M Sport trim.

An AR-15 is the same as a true assault rifle in all the ways that matter when it comes to killing lots of people as quickly as possible.

Arguing about definitions like this is a handy deflection from the obvious and simple things that could be introduced but for some reason the NRA and GOP don't want to talk about. i.e. Keeping a 'proper' centralised record of gun owners, not allowing people with mental health issues, criminal convictions or anyone under the age of (lets say) 21 purchase or own any sort of firearm.

These are all things that could be introduced quickly which don't infringe on the rights of most gun owners and will bring instant benefits, but something something something 2A...

[deadtom]

tangerine_sedge said:

Arguing about definitions like this is a handy deflection from the obvious and simple things that could be introduced but for some reason the NRA and GOP don't want to talk about. i.e. Keeping a 'proper' centralised record of gun owners, not allowing people with mental health issues, criminal convictions or anyone under the age of (lets say) 21 purchase or own any sort of firearm.

These are all things that could be introduced quickly which don't infringe on the rights of most gun owners and will bring instant benefits, but something something something 2A...

I quite agree, my point though is that deflecting the conversation by discussing definitions still doesn't logically work because the argument that 'it's not technically an assault rifle' is, to my mind at least, a load of balls.