US Riots

[NMNeil]

tangerine_sedge said:

If the Republicans had any sense then they would have never let the country get into this state in the first place.

I'm sure Republicans wouldn't be quite so concillatory if the boot was on the other foot.

On the other hand, this a great opportunity for the GOP to clear their house of the 3%/nazi/KKK supporters and enablers and take back control of their own party. If they don't do that then they'll permanently lose the middle ground (that Biden will likely appeal to).

The problem was that any decision made by the Republicans immediately made it to court.
A case in point was the border wall.
https://www.govexec.com/oversight/2020/12/efforts-...

[HM-2]

williamp said:

Depsite the terms the media are using, it didnt look like a coup to me. Nor an insurrectiom. And with the complete lack of fires, destruction, looting etc (one person cheerfully walking off with a lecturn and waving isnt really looting....)

A bloodless coup is still a coup. The focus here is the intent of the individuals involved, first and foremost.

[Octoposse]

HM-2 said:

williamp said:

Depsite the terms the media are using, it didnt look like a coup to me. Nor an insurrectiom. And with the complete lack of fires, destruction, looting etc (one person cheerfully walking off with a lecturn and waving isnt really looting....)

A bloodless coup is still a coup. The focus here is the intent of the individuals involved, first and foremost.

Yup, the intent was to overthrow the clear result of an election recognised by all impartial observers as free, fair, and democratic. Walks like a coup, quacks like a coup . . .

As for the looting, I don't think there's a difference in law between smiling and grimacing whilst you're at it!

[Liokault]

Octoposse said:

HM-2 said:

williamp said:

Depsite the terms the media are using, it didnt look like a coup to me. Nor an insurrectiom. And with the complete lack of fires, destruction, looting etc (one person cheerfully walking off with a lecturn and waving isnt really looting....)

A bloodless coup is still a coup. The focus here is the intent of the individuals involved, first and foremost.

Yup, the intent was to overthrow the clear result of an election recognised by all impartial observers as free, fair, and democratic. Walks like a coup, quacks like a coup . . .

As for the looting, I don't think there's a difference in law between smiling and grimacing whilst you're at it!

It wasn’t a coup, most of the people inside the building looked surprised and more than a bit confused. There wasn’t any intent there wasn’t any plan, certainly not any plan held by anything like a majority.

It it was a coup, they outnumbered the police by what looked like 20-1, they would still be in control of the building.

[Bill]

Liokault said:

It wasn’t a coup, most of the people inside the building looked surprised and more than a bit confused. There wasn’t any intent there wasn’t any plan, certainly not any plan held by anything like a majority.

It it was a coup, they outnumbered the police by what looked like 20-1, they would still be in control of the building.

I'd agree that plenty of them seemed to be surprised to get as far as they did but there was a hardcore subsection who were intent on far more.

They occupied the Capitol until the national guard turned up. Guess why they took so long?

[paulguitar]

There will be a lot more information to come out yet, but it looks like there was a core of people who were entirely serious about a coup, and also a load of, effectively, bystanders.

If some of the mob had reached certain members of congress I suspect it is entirely possible they would have killed them. It was a great escape really, this could have been a lot, lot worse.

We now have a situation where some Senators are saying they would like to vote for impeachment but are afraid for their own lives and those of their families. At least one senator has taken to wearing body armour:


https://twitter.com/PhilipRucker/status/1349739174...

[jimmyjimjim]

tangerine_sedge said:

If the Republicans had any sense then they would have never let the country get into this state in the first place.

I'm sure Republicans wouldn't be quite so concillatory if the boot was on the other foot.

On the other hand, this a great opportunity for the GOP to clear their house of the 3%/nazi/KKK supporters and enablers and take back control of their own party. If they don't do that then they'll permanently lose the middle ground (that Biden will likely appeal to).

I'm sure the Republicans would be pretty near identical if the boot was on the other foot. The Democrats are not the nice party, there's no such thing.

I'm actually very curious to see how the Republicans handle the impeachment and how they'll vote once he's gone. It's worth remembering that Trump was never part of the Republican establishment, unlike Biden who was a Democratic Senator for more than 30 years, Democratic VP for 8; a party stalwart his entire life.

I'm curious to see if the Republicans throw him to the wolves now he's no longer President - he's not one of them, they owe him no loyalty once he's out. In many ways they'd be well advised to be non-partisan. They risk shedding the few % who actually thought Trump was something worth having, as opposed to the rest who voted because he was the Republican candidate (but a good chunk of those would still vote R regardless), but it would be a good move to start to recover those disgusted by him.

[HM-2]

Liokault said:

It wasn’t a coup

You keep saying this, then supporting it with things that are totally irrelevant to the question of whether or not it was a coup.

Were those who invaded the Capitol seeking to overthrow a democratically elected government? Yes. They stated as much.
Did at least some of those who invaded the Capitol believe their actions in doing so would achieve or contribute to this aim? Yes. Again, they stated as much

Ergo, coup.

[paulguitar]

HM-2 said:

You keep saying this, then supporting it with things that are totally irrelevant to the question of whether or not it was a coup.

Were those who invaded the Capitol seeking to overthrow a democratically elected government? Yes. They stated as much.
Did at least some of those who invaded the Capitol believe their actions in doing so would achieve or contribute to this aim? Yes. Again, they stated as much

Ergo, coup.

Exactly, and a failed coup is a rehearsal.

[andy_s]

paulguitar said:

HM-2 said:

You keep saying this, then supporting it with things that are totally irrelevant to the question of whether or not it was a coup.

Were those who invaded the Capitol seeking to overthrow a democratically elected government? Yes. They stated as much.
Did at least some of those who invaded the Capitol believe their actions in doing so would achieve or contribute to this aim? Yes. Again, they stated as much

Ergo, coup.

Exactly, and a failed coup is a rehearsal.

Is that why it was in fancy dress?

[paulguitar]

andy_s said:

Is that why it was in fancy dress?

[Liokault]

HM-2 said:

Liokault said:

It wasn’t a coup

You keep saying this, then supporting it with things that are totally irrelevant to the question of whether or not it was a coup.

Were those who invaded the Capitol seeking to overthrow a democratically elected government? Yes. They stated as much.
Did at least some of those who invaded the Capitol believe their actions in doing so would achieve or contribute to this aim? Yes. Again, they stated as much

Ergo, coup.

I don’t think one person there realistically thought that they could effect long (or even really short) term change.

I don’t even think that 99% of there people there thought that they would get into the building, I don’t think that 95% of the people there thought they would be trying to get into the building.

I don’t understand how we consider it a coup when they person they want in power is in fact in power and they best that could be done is to delay a vote, not delay the time that the trump vacates power.

[HM-2]

Liokault said:

I don’t think one person there realistically thought that they could effect long (or even really short) term change.

Then, not to put too fine a point on it, you'd be wrong.

[Liokault]

HM-2 said:

Liokault said:

I don’t think one person there realistically thought that they could effect long (or even really short) term change.

Then, not to put too fine a point on it, you'd be wrong.

So where is this change? They took the building (suspiciously easily)...yet they actually lost.

[HM-2]

Liokault said:

So where is this change?

Generally, if a coup fails, then a change of administration doesn't occur.

Liokault said:

They took the building (suspiciously easily)...yet they actually lost.

Well, yes. Because they failed in their objective to capture high value members of the legislature, and contrary to their understanding disrupting the process did not require a new election to be run.

[DickyC]

andy_s said:

Is that why it was in fancy dress?

"We're being attacked by the Village People."

There was play acting, too. The lads scaling the ramparts could have pushed past the police on the steps like everyone else. No, they had to go the Hollywood route.

[Octoposse]

HM-2 said:

Liokault said:

So where is this change?

Generally, if a coup fails, then a change of administration doesn't occur.

Liokault said:

They took the building (suspiciously easily)...yet they actually lost.

Well, yes. Because they failed in their objective to capture high value members of the legislature, and contrary to their understanding disrupting the process did not require a new election to be run.

Yes, and not forgetting the particularly barking participation of the prophesising religious far right, who thought there'd be divine / mystical intervention to overthrow the election result if only they showed enough faith.

[AW111]

NMNeil said:

tangerine_sedge said:

If the Republicans had any sense then they would have never let the country get into this state in the first place.

I'm sure Republicans wouldn't be quite so concillatory if the boot was on the other foot.

On the other hand, this a great opportunity for the GOP to clear their house of the 3%/nazi/KKK supporters and enablers and take back control of their own party. If they don't do that then they'll permanently lose the middle ground (that Biden will likely appeal to).

The problem was that any decision made by the Republicans immediately made it to court.
A case in point was the border wall.
https://www.govexec.com/oversight/2020/12/efforts-...

If Trump had appointed competent people to draft legislation, his admin wouldn't have lost so many court cases.

One defining feature of the Trump administration is the amount of sloppy, slipshod legislation he tried to introduce.

[hidetheelephants]

DickyC said:

andy_s said:

Is that why it was in fancy dress?

"We're being attacked by the Village People."

There was play acting, too. The lads scaling the ramparts could have pushed past the police on the steps like everyone else. No, they had to go the Hollywood route.

With that scaffold that was built they should have had a chorus of Lily the Pink.

[Carl_Manchester]

It’s a shame our in-house righteous warriors were not as vocal for the other 300 pages of this thread.

If you read the last ten pages it’s as if the storming of congress apparently has nothing to do with the other 290 pages of riot preceding it.