Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 2)
Discussion
Specifically with regards to the cold meats "sausage war" going on at the moment, the EU does not allow these products in from non-EU countries, it is not a specific rule just for the UK, it exists across the board.
Bearing this in mind, the six month grace period was not to allow custom controls, because you do not need them for products you are not allowed to import, but to allow the manufacturers to arrange for production within NI, negating the import issue. They just haven't done it.
Given, that the UK, under Boris, is considered untrustworthy, making a new agreement seems pointless, as we will not stick to it, and our desperation to sign trade agreements with Australia and the USA, both of whom have very lax food safety laws, compared to the EU, I can understand why the EU is playing hardball on this issue.
Bearing this in mind, the six month grace period was not to allow custom controls, because you do not need them for products you are not allowed to import, but to allow the manufacturers to arrange for production within NI, negating the import issue. They just haven't done it.
Given, that the UK, under Boris, is considered untrustworthy, making a new agreement seems pointless, as we will not stick to it, and our desperation to sign trade agreements with Australia and the USA, both of whom have very lax food safety laws, compared to the EU, I can understand why the EU is playing hardball on this issue.
JeffreyD said:
sunbeam alpine said:
From
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-57459...
"The UK is also due to ban the import of chilled EU meat products to Great Britain in October."
It's not clear in the article whether this is part of a plan or as a response to the current situation. If it's part of planned changes as part of the Brexit transition then surely it's logical that the UK can't expect to ship chilled meat products in the other direction?
The argument is that NI isn't "the other direction" and that it's an internal market so nothing to do with the EU.https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-57459...
"The UK is also due to ban the import of chilled EU meat products to Great Britain in October."
It's not clear in the article whether this is part of a plan or as a response to the current situation. If it's part of planned changes as part of the Brexit transition then surely it's logical that the UK can't expect to ship chilled meat products in the other direction?
Vanden Saab said:
Unless the UK is going to ban chilled meats from going from the RoI to Northern Ireland it is not the same thing at all because that is the comparison. Can you imagine the uproar from the Eu if that was tried? RoI was always going to lose access to the UK unless a two way agreement was reached.
From a practical perspective it wouldn't be possible to ban anything moving on the island of Ireland.And there would be uproar if we tried, and not just from the EU.
psgcarey said:
Specifically with regards to the cold meats "sausage war" going on at the moment, the EU does not allow these products in from non-EU countries, it is not a specific rule just for the UK, it exists across the board.
Bearing this in mind, the six month grace period was not to allow custom controls, because you do not need them for products you are not allowed to import, but to allow the manufacturers to arrange for production within NI, negating the import issue. They just haven't done it.
Given, that the UK, under Boris, is considered untrustworthy, making a new agreement seems pointless, as we will not stick to it, and our desperation to sign trade agreements with Australia and the USA, both of whom have very lax food safety laws, compared to the EU, I can understand why the EU is playing hardball on this issue.
Re the bold bit above - interesting. Where did you get that from?Bearing this in mind, the six month grace period was not to allow custom controls, because you do not need them for products you are not allowed to import, but to allow the manufacturers to arrange for production within NI, negating the import issue. They just haven't done it.
Given, that the UK, under Boris, is considered untrustworthy, making a new agreement seems pointless, as we will not stick to it, and our desperation to sign trade agreements with Australia and the USA, both of whom have very lax food safety laws, compared to the EU, I can understand why the EU is playing hardball on this issue.
Garvin said:
psgcarey said:
Specifically with regards to the cold meats "sausage war" going on at the moment, the EU does not allow these products in from non-EU countries, it is not a specific rule just for the UK, it exists across the board.
Bearing this in mind, the six month grace period was not to allow custom controls, because you do not need them for products you are not allowed to import, but to allow the manufacturers to arrange for production within NI, negating the import issue. They just haven't done it.
Given, that the UK, under Boris, is considered untrustworthy, making a new agreement seems pointless, as we will not stick to it, and our desperation to sign trade agreements with Australia and the USA, both of whom have very lax food safety laws, compared to the EU, I can understand why the EU is playing hardball on this issue.
Re the bold bit above - interesting. Where did you get that from?Bearing this in mind, the six month grace period was not to allow custom controls, because you do not need them for products you are not allowed to import, but to allow the manufacturers to arrange for production within NI, negating the import issue. They just haven't done it.
Given, that the UK, under Boris, is considered untrustworthy, making a new agreement seems pointless, as we will not stick to it, and our desperation to sign trade agreements with Australia and the USA, both of whom have very lax food safety laws, compared to the EU, I can understand why the EU is playing hardball on this issue.
One of the experts they had on said that it was the whole reasoning behind the grace period. Chilled meat products are not allowed in. At all. From the UK, or any other non-EU country. This was known at the negotiations. The grace period was to allow time to move production, nothing else. It was the understanding, between both parties, that this was the basis on which the negotiation was carried out, and fully understood by both parties.
psgcarey said:
Chilled meat products are not allowed in. At all. From the UK, or any other non-EU country. This was known at the negotiations. The grace period was to allow time to move production, nothing else. It was the understanding, between both parties, that this was the basis on which the negotiation was carried out, and fully understood by both parties.
Indeed. NI is effectively part of the EU, economically.
Condi said:
psgcarey said:
Chilled meat products are not allowed in. At all. From the UK, or any other non-EU country. This was known at the negotiations. The grace period was to allow time to move production, nothing else. It was the understanding, between both parties, that this was the basis on which the negotiation was carried out, and fully understood by both parties.
Indeed. NI is effectively part of the EU, economically.
http://apha.defra.gov.uk/documents/bip/iin/mp-04.p...
12. EFTA countries and Greenland
The UK government recognises that Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein implement EU veterinary legislation in relation to the movement of animals and animal products.
Therefore, animals and animal products from Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein must comply with the same requirements and controls applying to live animals and animal products from EU Member States. This also applies to Iceland for products of animal origin for human consumption, composite products and aquaculture.
Furthermore, in relation to imports from Faroe Islands this also applies to fishery products and aquaculture only. In relation to imports from Greenland this applies to fishery products and fish by-products only too.
It should be a straightforward matter to inclued NI Eire with Norway Switzerland and Liechtenstein and consider Faroe Islands and Greenland
psgcarey said:
BBC Radio 5.
One of the experts they had on said that it was the whole reasoning behind the grace period. Chilled meat products are not allowed in. At all. From the UK, or any other non-EU country. This was known at the negotiations. The grace period was to allow time to move production, nothing else. It was the understanding, between both parties, that this was the basis on which the negotiation was carried out, and fully understood by both parties.
Taps previous post. One of the experts they had on said that it was the whole reasoning behind the grace period. Chilled meat products are not allowed in. At all. From the UK, or any other non-EU country. This was known at the negotiations. The grace period was to allow time to move production, nothing else. It was the understanding, between both parties, that this was the basis on which the negotiation was carried out, and fully understood by both parties.
psgcarey said:
Garvin said:
psgcarey said:
Specifically with regards to the cold meats "sausage war" going on at the moment, the EU does not allow these products in from non-EU countries, it is not a specific rule just for the UK, it exists across the board.
Bearing this in mind, the six month grace period was not to allow custom controls, because you do not need them for products you are not allowed to import, but to allow the manufacturers to arrange for production within NI, negating the import issue. They just haven't done it.
Given, that the UK, under Boris, is considered untrustworthy, making a new agreement seems pointless, as we will not stick to it, and our desperation to sign trade agreements with Australia and the USA, both of whom have very lax food safety laws, compared to the EU, I can understand why the EU is playing hardball on this issue.
Re the bold bit above - interesting. Where did you get that from?Bearing this in mind, the six month grace period was not to allow custom controls, because you do not need them for products you are not allowed to import, but to allow the manufacturers to arrange for production within NI, negating the import issue. They just haven't done it.
Given, that the UK, under Boris, is considered untrustworthy, making a new agreement seems pointless, as we will not stick to it, and our desperation to sign trade agreements with Australia and the USA, both of whom have very lax food safety laws, compared to the EU, I can understand why the EU is playing hardball on this issue.
One of the experts they had on said that it was the whole reasoning behind the grace period. Chilled meat products are not allowed in. At all. From the UK, or any other non-EU country. This was known at the negotiations. The grace period was to allow time to move production, nothing else. It was the understanding, between both parties, that this was the basis on which the negotiation was carried out, and fully understood by both parties.
I get the point about the EU not allowing chilled meats into the EU but that is just an EU law/rule. Now if all EU rules/laws are not to be ‘broken’ between GB and NI and all have to be obeyed then there would be no need for any protocol whatsoever.
Sway said:
I'll just repeat here...
From the Command Paper.
So, why say that there's no mention of an agreement in principle regarding these goods?
The command paper is a UK document it is not part of the joint UK and EU agreement of the committee. From the Command Paper.
So, why say that there's no mention of an agreement in principle regarding these goods?
Edited by Sway on Sunday 13th June 11:53
The joint agreement contains a transition period but does not require the EU to take part in any further negotiations.
From the command paper its clear Gove knew there would be an issue. The government could have done something about this in the committee but did not.
Garvin said:
It’s not written down in any agreement then! Forgive me if I take, what appears to be, an expert’s opinion with a large dose of sodium chloride.
I get the point about the EU not allowing chilled meats into the EU but that is just an EU law/rule. Now if all EU rules/laws are not to be ‘broken’ between GB and NI and all have to be obeyed then there would be no need for any protocol whatsoever.
The EU laws that are to be followed are written in the agreement. I get the point about the EU not allowing chilled meats into the EU but that is just an EU law/rule. Now if all EU rules/laws are not to be ‘broken’ between GB and NI and all have to be obeyed then there would be no need for any protocol whatsoever.
roger.mellie said:
psgcarey said:
BBC Radio 5.
One of the experts they had on said that it was the whole reasoning behind the grace period. Chilled meat products are not allowed in. At all. From the UK, or any other non-EU country. This was known at the negotiations. The grace period was to allow time to move production, nothing else. It was the understanding, between both parties, that this was the basis on which the negotiation was carried out, and fully understood by both parties.
Taps previous post. One of the experts they had on said that it was the whole reasoning behind the grace period. Chilled meat products are not allowed in. At all. From the UK, or any other non-EU country. This was known at the negotiations. The grace period was to allow time to move production, nothing else. It was the understanding, between both parties, that this was the basis on which the negotiation was carried out, and fully understood by both parties.
Vasco said:
I'm sure I'm not the only one who is struggling to understand what all the fuss is about - sausages apparently........
......
Short version...............
We signed an agreement.
We want to break agreement.
Pesky people we signed agreement with are not ok with this.
(Sausages is a red herring, could be anything)
roger.mellie said:
JeffreyD said:
The EU laws that are to be followed are written in the agreement.
Careful, you’ll hoist yourself by your own petard with that claim.The agreement is an application of prior rules and not an explicit legal document that should be expected to stand alone.
It seems quite straightforward to me but in reality nothing ever is in respect of NI.
This is a bad and bitter divorce
It strikes me that one party approached it with a “let’s be fair” and the other with “f
k you, how dare you leave me” approach
It seems to me that the only sensible thing to do now is to sever all ties and for both parties to go their separate ways
Continually sitting in front of the divorce lawyers with he said/she said .. yes you did/no I didn’t on an endless loop is pointless
Most countries in the world can trade quite happily on WTO and not bother about what country X is doing internally
It surely must be getting to the point of the U.K. saying fk it we’re better off having naff all to do with you
Today it’s sausages .. next week it will be lifesaving medicines the NHS can use everywhere in the country except NI
It strikes me that one party approached it with a “let’s be fair” and the other with “f
k you, how dare you leave me” approach It seems to me that the only sensible thing to do now is to sever all ties and for both parties to go their separate ways
Continually sitting in front of the divorce lawyers with he said/she said .. yes you did/no I didn’t on an endless loop is pointless
Most countries in the world can trade quite happily on WTO and not bother about what country X is doing internally
It surely must be getting to the point of the U.K. saying f
k it we’re better off having naff all to do with you Today it’s sausages .. next week it will be lifesaving medicines the NHS can use everywhere in the country except NI
Vasco said:
I'm sure I'm not the only one who is struggling to understand what all the fuss is about - sausages apparently........
......
It is about whether NI is part of the UK... The EU seem to think this is not the case and that they have somehow taken it over and are trying to impose their rules on part of the UK. The protocol was always about allowing goods to flow freely between the UK and NI while respecting that there is no border in Ireland so some extra checks might be required.......
The EU are now trying to stop certain products from flowing at all which is totally against both the letter and the purpose of the protocol. They seem to think that by doing this the UK will agree to follow all their rules in the whole of the UK forever. By trying to do this they either do not understand the UK mentality or completely stupid or both.
Some EU supporters suggest we agreed to this idea but cannot provide even a scintilla of where it says anything of the sort in the agreement.
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