The EU v UK vaccine tussle
Discussion
SlimJim16v said:
andymadmak said:
Why would Turkey treat UvdL in this way?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-5666834...
And why would Michel go along with it? Are UvdL days numbered?
"European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen was left without a seat, and had to sit on a nearby sofa, as the bloc's leaders met with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-5666834...
And why would Michel go along with it? Are UvdL days numbered?
Vasco said:
andy43 said:
For me it's a reaction to something that I cannot understand.
Our closest neighbours geographically, maybe even closest in outlook, science, education, history and society than pretty much anywhere else on the planet seem hellbent on failing their citizens. It's depressing. There is no joy, people are dying.
Yes the UK screwed up big time, we sent covid into care homes, we've made mistakes that have cost thousands of lives, but none of it was genuinely actively destructive like the anti-vaxxer rubbish and mixed messages we keep hearing from the EU and europe.
Macron and VDL and the rest of them want firing, and I'm being polite. Look at this -
https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2021/03/0...
Only 40% of the french would take the vaccine according to that article.
Why? Usual line is they don't trust their politicians. And we do? Seriously?
We wait for the next slide please and we laugh at Boris the clown then we listen intently to someone like van Tam and we take it on board, we get it, we google, we comprehend - and we vaccinate.
99% vs 40%. How are we so different? Can't get my head around it.
We're very fortunate to have the level heads and knowledge of the likes of Van Tam and Whitty. Do the French put similar experts up in front of TV cameras to answer any questions?Our closest neighbours geographically, maybe even closest in outlook, science, education, history and society than pretty much anywhere else on the planet seem hellbent on failing their citizens. It's depressing. There is no joy, people are dying.
Yes the UK screwed up big time, we sent covid into care homes, we've made mistakes that have cost thousands of lives, but none of it was genuinely actively destructive like the anti-vaxxer rubbish and mixed messages we keep hearing from the EU and europe.
Macron and VDL and the rest of them want firing, and I'm being polite. Look at this -
https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2021/03/0...
Only 40% of the french would take the vaccine according to that article.
Why? Usual line is they don't trust their politicians. And we do? Seriously?
We wait for the next slide please and we laugh at Boris the clown then we listen intently to someone like van Tam and we take it on board, we get it, we google, we comprehend - and we vaccinate.
99% vs 40%. How are we so different? Can't get my head around it.
Mortarboard said:
Like I said, if the roles were reversed, there'd be much wailing & gnashing of teeth on here. Screams of "good faith" etc.
I'd be like a bloke admiring a 911 in the showroom, and putting down a deposit. Sales folk can't guarantee a delivery date. Chummy eagerly awaits his car. Calls them up a week later for an update, to get told "we sold that one. Yours is coming from Germany. Factory hasn't made it yet, mind"
Indeed, the UK delivery was prioritized. AZ saw the penalty clauses, knew they could fudge the EU delivery with less of a penalty, so that's what they did. That's business. Especially in the "quarter by quarter" fashion that publicly quoted companies do. Still doesn't change the fact that AZ are tardy in their production. To an extent that is pretty obvious.
M.
I'd be like a bloke admiring a 911 in the showroom, and putting down a deposit. Sales folk can't guarantee a delivery date. Chummy eagerly awaits his car. Calls them up a week later for an update, to get told "we sold that one. Yours is coming from Germany. Factory hasn't made it yet, mind"
Indeed, the UK delivery was prioritized. AZ saw the penalty clauses, knew they could fudge the EU delivery with less of a penalty, so that's what they did. That's business. Especially in the "quarter by quarter" fashion that publicly quoted companies do. Still doesn't change the fact that AZ are tardy in their production. To an extent that is pretty obvious.
M.
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
Mortarboard said:
amusingduck said:
Mortarboard said:
Signed a deal before the UK. Literally the day before. The UK deal then seems to have prioritized the UK deliveries, against the previous agreed "best efforts".
I love this argument. You're effectively arguing that the UK market is superior to the Single Market. Which is nonsense, of course, but more power to you 
I'd be like a bloke admiring a 911 in the showroom, and putting down a deposit. Sales folk can't guarantee a delivery date. Chummy eagerly awaits his car. Calls them up a week later for an update, to get told "we sold that one. Yours is coming from Germany. Factory hasn't made it yet, mind"
Indeed, the UK delivery was prioritized. AZ saw the penalty clauses, knew they could fudge the EU delivery with less of a penalty, so that's what they did. That's business. Especially in the "quarter by quarter" fashion that publicly quoted companies do. Still doesn't change the fact that AZ are tardy in their production. To an extent that is pretty obvious.
M.
633Squadron said:
i4got said:
The UK was just trying to save every citizen. EU were trying to save every citizen a Euro or two.
Sums it up succinctly. Wish I had thought of it.
The money saving effort was just a small byproduct of their massive pen pusher class justifying their jobs and losing sight of the job in hand.
When you spend your life drawing out a job that can be done in days to one that see's you to your massive pension after a life of low tax earnings, that's what you get as a byproduct.
The failure was one entirely based on the political ideology and the ultra slow and ponderous processes at the foundation of that institution. It wont be the last time that structure injures/kills the people of Europe.
EddieSteadyGo said:
I guess what I am saying is that they (we) have been a bit lucky the Oxford vaccine worked. If that vaccine had failed, like Sanofi, our vaccine rollout would have been not that different from the EU. I think it is the Americans who seem to have done best, in that they backed multiple vaccines *and* ensured domestic production so they remained in control of the supply.
UK has used large quantities of Pfizer.I hope UK has learned lessons from this, we clearly can't rely on EU based businesses for critical supplies based on the way the EU has gone about the last few months, so i hope its a kick up the arse to onshore far more in future, especially with regards to supplies for the NHS.
FiF said:
If true, repeat if true, whilst one expected the EU to act like asshats following the 2016 vote, did anybody expect the level of hostile nationalism we are possibly seeing?
I expected nothing but hostility from the EU. I said so many years ago that the EU will see us an an enemy and we should be prepared for that and have that in mind during any negotiations.The only thing that would hold them back from being entirely vindictive is the member state governments and their interests.
The UK population told the EU we consider them a bunch of useless idiots, that rarely ends with that institution being friendly. It is their worst nightmare to see an ex member thrive. They are not our friends, the sooner people realise that the better.
Just to be clear, the EU and the people of Europe and the majority of the governments of those people are not the same thing. The people will just want to get on with their life, the EU institution is threatened and will react accordingly.
MOTORVATOR said:
I'm not sure that is comparable.
I didn't think Sanofi got to stage three trials. Didn't they get poor results on their phase 1/2 in December and not progress?
WIth AZ they had an increasing number of encouraging Ph1/2 by July last year that then progressed to Ph2/3. UK though began Ph2/3 in May despite having been criticised for maybe over egging the Ph1/2 results.
So if AZ had failed at the same stages as Sanofi UK Gov had time to bolster or invest in other vaccine supplies?
UK invested and organised contracts with every major candidate, UK has first call on some yet to be approved French vaccines for example.I didn't think Sanofi got to stage three trials. Didn't they get poor results on their phase 1/2 in December and not progress?
WIth AZ they had an increasing number of encouraging Ph1/2 by July last year that then progressed to Ph2/3. UK though began Ph2/3 in May despite having been criticised for maybe over egging the Ph1/2 results.
So if AZ had failed at the same stages as Sanofi UK Gov had time to bolster or invest in other vaccine supplies?
EddieSteadyGo said:
Of the total UK vaccine doses so far (~38.5m) about 17.5m have been Pfizer.
Germany as a comparison, have given ~17m doses of Pfizer.
So as I say, if we didn't have the higher output from the AZ vaccine, we would be in a similar position to much of Europe in terms of the number of doses given.
But not the number of people, we have been effectively doing double the number of people per doses given in the first stage of the roll out due to the 12 week between dose policy.Germany as a comparison, have given ~17m doses of Pfizer.
So as I say, if we didn't have the higher output from the AZ vaccine, we would be in a similar position to much of Europe in terms of the number of doses given.
Of course without more than one vaccine being available, it would have been a slower process. But that's not the situation for the UK or most of Europe when you look at the vaccines they have access to but are not using. The EU certainly don't have the excuse of lack of supply to fall back on now, you are going to see the real impact of refusal to accept the vaccines are safe in their population, something you wont see in the UK or the USA.
Boxer4 said:
Rather silly post which reflects both an ignorance of how the pharmaceutical industry works and skews everything through a post-Brexit us and them lens.
It appears that you do not realise that the supply chains which the British based vaccine manufacturing base depends on relies on the EU. All you see is how the finished product flows. If the EU's intent was hostile to the UK then quite simply they would prevent the export of vaccines to the UK (they haven't, much of the British Astrazeneca and Pfizer supplies originate from the EU) and the components used by the British manufacturers of the same vaccines.
The EU commission in particular have NOT covered themselves in glory over this episode but to claim overt hostility is utterly ridiculous.
It is interesting also to hear about the supposed EU total vaccine export ban on these pages, how then did the UK obtain its vaccines from there? Same goes for countries like Canada, Australia and Japan.
Its a reflection on the reality that the EU have discussed and are imposing export bans on pharma companies based in the EU.It appears that you do not realise that the supply chains which the British based vaccine manufacturing base depends on relies on the EU. All you see is how the finished product flows. If the EU's intent was hostile to the UK then quite simply they would prevent the export of vaccines to the UK (they haven't, much of the British Astrazeneca and Pfizer supplies originate from the EU) and the components used by the British manufacturers of the same vaccines.
The EU commission in particular have NOT covered themselves in glory over this episode but to claim overt hostility is utterly ridiculous.
It is interesting also to hear about the supposed EU total vaccine export ban on these pages, how then did the UK obtain its vaccines from there? Same goes for countries like Canada, Australia and Japan.
You may not like it, but that is what they have done and clearly are now making it impossible for the Dutch AZ plant to export to the UK apart from one small batch, despite UK funding that plant and having a legal contract with the company.
The UK would be wise to cut out of the supply chain any potential threats such a political entity is making.
It wasn't the UK who politicised this, the UK wanted to stay well out of this bulls
t, but the EU dragged the UK into it and haven't let go since with the remarks made by the EU upper politicians.morfmedia said:
Some good news: "Brits See Fastest Decline In COVID Cases In The World". I'm sure the EU will be really chuffed with our progress.
https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/brits-see-faste...
But according to Boris it’s because of lockdown, not vaccines https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/brits-see-faste...
Tryke3 said:
633Squadron said:
Am I right in saying...
Meanwhile the UK is vaccinating its citizens with AZ, Pfizer, Moderna et all.....and just getting the job done?
So far the "clot" concern is below normal expectations - and on a par with other Covid vaccines?
Apart from "politics" - I am struggling to understand the rationale from other countries. Or is it just me?
Its just you and a majority of brexiteers who really need a win at any cost hthMeanwhile the UK is vaccinating its citizens with AZ, Pfizer, Moderna et all.....and just getting the job done?
So far the "clot" concern is below normal expectations - and on a par with other Covid vaccines?
Apart from "politics" - I am struggling to understand the rationale from other countries. Or is it just me?
NRS said:
Stupid morons in the health service here. They've recommended getting rid of AZ from Norway. The government have said they will think more (getting a report back in mid-May, so we will have a postponement until then it seems).
Arguments seem to be:
- Low rate of deaths here so no need to risk the blood clots.
- They think there is low trust so are unsure how many will take it now.
Of course completely ignoring than part 1 depends on there not being an increase in the spread, such as is happening in much of the EU now). And that part two is linked to their message.
The fking tts are not giving us a choice, as it basically doesn't affect them. For example a polish person went to their mum's funeral, and was not allowed back into the country a few days later (due to a small difference in what is counted as ok residency to return). They have a job, been paying full tax for the 2 years here, have a rental agreement for a year, were being paid furlough etc. but because of the rules here suddenly have with no notice had their life turned upside down - they've lost their house, furlough payments etc with literally no warning as a result. The sheer ignorance from the decision makers who get to hang out with their families and friends basically as normal is astounding. So they're happy to remove the choice of a vaccine which has 1 in a million chance of death from those of us who are really affected by their rules. They should be utterly ashamed.
Move to a proper country outside the EU. USA or UK would be a start.Arguments seem to be:
- Low rate of deaths here so no need to risk the blood clots.
- They think there is low trust so are unsure how many will take it now.
Of course completely ignoring than part 1 depends on there not being an increase in the spread, such as is happening in much of the EU now). And that part two is linked to their message.
The f
king tts are not giving us a choice, as it basically doesn't affect them. For example a polish person went to their mum's funeral, and was not allowed back into the country a few days later (due to a small difference in what is counted as ok residency to return). They have a job, been paying full tax for the 2 years here, have a rental agreement for a year, were being paid furlough etc. but because of the rules here suddenly have with no notice had their life turned upside down - they've lost their house, furlough payments etc with literally no warning as a result. The sheer ignorance from the decision makers who get to hang out with their families and friends basically as normal is astounding. So they're happy to remove the choice of a vaccine which has 1 in a million chance of death from those of us who are really affected by their rules. They should be utterly ashamed. Edited by NRS on Thursday 15th April 17:55
No doubt already posted, but it seems yet another EU failure, fuelled by inaction.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56735931
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56735931
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