How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 10)
Discussion
DeepEnd said:
It’s true that Steve Baker is saying it.
It’s not true that it was deliverable, as it did not fix the NI issue, and was around the time Davis was making his unrealistic mutual recognition of standards offer which was obviously never going to be acceptable to the EU.
Steve Baker is just trying to write history as if he has done nothing wrong and has not been proven to have misjudged the whole EU negotiation with all his promises exposed as completely flawed and erroneous.
It’s pretty obvious he will never bring himself to admit that so it’s also fairly easy to see why he is peddling this particular fantasy. He knows that many want to hear what he is saying. The express know that is what their readers want to read, it brings comfort that “it could have been so good if it was not for that remainer May”.
If it was that good and that easy with the EU, why would May not have done it? Simple - it was a unicorn.
Welcome back It’s not true that it was deliverable, as it did not fix the NI issue, and was around the time Davis was making his unrealistic mutual recognition of standards offer which was obviously never going to be acceptable to the EU.
Steve Baker is just trying to write history as if he has done nothing wrong and has not been proven to have misjudged the whole EU negotiation with all his promises exposed as completely flawed and erroneous.
It’s pretty obvious he will never bring himself to admit that so it’s also fairly easy to see why he is peddling this particular fantasy. He knows that many want to hear what he is saying. The express know that is what their readers want to read, it brings comfort that “it could have been so good if it was not for that remainer May”.
If it was that good and that easy with the EU, why would May not have done it? Simple - it was a unicorn.
Red Devil said:
The last time there was such a divided government was in the 3 years prior to the outbreak of WW1.
The Conservatives risk suffering the same fate as the Liberal party which has never been in power since.
There is interesting parallel with those times. The Liberals were in coalition with the IPP which demanded Home Rule.
The Conservatives have had to get into bed with the DUP since the 2017 GE.
Yet again Ireland is the elephant in the room of UK politics.
We are well past the intricacies of the Irish border now, GV and his pals admitted that it was all a cynical ruse.The Conservatives risk suffering the same fate as the Liberal party which has never been in power since.
There is interesting parallel with those times. The Liberals were in coalition with the IPP which demanded Home Rule.
The Conservatives have had to get into bed with the DUP since the 2017 GE.
Yet again Ireland is the elephant in the room of UK politics.
We all know the EU is about regulations, that's how they maintain control.
Sound familiar?
'posted from the other thread'
jsf said:
The article is wrong then. I remember it clearly that NI would not be in the same FTA as the rest of UK, Tusk was very clear on this. It was their border in the Irish sea solution.
Steve Baker is more than a bit disingenuous in not mentioning this rather significant flaw that he has no solution for.DeepEnd said:
jsf said:
The article is wrong then. I remember it clearly that NI would not be in the same FTA as the rest of UK, Tusk was very clear on this. It was their border in the Irish sea solution.
Steve Baker is more than a bit disingenuous in not mentioning this rather significant flaw that he has no solution for.Le Controleur Horizontal said:
No question about it, Sinn Féin are deeply "involved", May should be ashamed to have allowed it.
How? What are the Shiners "deeply "involved" " in? What's the context of your statement?Genuine question because as I understand it, they're an anti-EU party.
TeamD said:
mike9009 said:
TeamD said:
mike9009 said:
NoNeed said:
digimeistter said:
They've gone very quiet, maybe they realise?
It is a question that can't be answered as there is nothing good about the EU that actually requires a political union, they also struggle with what does remain mean? is it more of the same? closer integration? a completely reformed EU that nobody knows what it will look like? what other countries will join in the next couple of generations and how much of a strain on our resources will it be.
The attitude demonstrated was being laughed at 45 years ago....
I think you will find the far right wing in Germany are not too fond of the EU either.
Edited by mike9009 on Thursday 23 May 21:50
christian-ohtc3 said:
DeepEnd said:
jsf said:
The article is wrong then. I remember it clearly that NI would not be in the same FTA as the rest of UK, Tusk was very clear on this. It was their border in the Irish sea solution.
Steve Baker is more than a bit disingenuous in not mentioning this rather significant flaw that he has no solution for.http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/...
The backstop is a political construct designed to tie the UK to the EU. The EUs own study shows it to be unnecessary. Anybody stating that the NI 'problem' is impossible to solve is talking out of their bum.
Vanden Saab said:
Not many people have seen this it seems. It is a study produced by the EU in Nov. 2017 which explains exactly how the NI 'problem' could be solved regardless of any political agreements without the need for NI to be treated any differently.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/...
The backstop is a political construct designed to tie the UK to the EU. The EUs own study shows it to be unnecessary. Anybody stating that the NI 'problem' is impossible to solve is talking out of their bum.
Plenty of us read that and have been calling the bullshttp://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/...
The backstop is a political construct designed to tie the UK to the EU. The EUs own study shows it to be unnecessary. Anybody stating that the NI 'problem' is impossible to solve is talking out of their bum.
t about NI out for literally years now.More hits the fan.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/21/e...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/23/e...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/23/v...
Denying anyone's right to vote is a direct assault on democracy.
Utterly shameful. We really have sunk to a new low.
This country's standing in the world is being dismantled brick by brick.
hits the fan.https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/21/e...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/23/e...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/23/v...
Denying anyone's right to vote is a direct assault on democracy.
Utterly shameful. We really have sunk to a new low.
This country's standing in the world is being dismantled brick by brick.
Red Devil said:
More hits the fan.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/21/e...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/23/e...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/23/v...
Denying anyone's right to vote is a direct assault on democracy.
Utterly shameful. We really have sunk to a new low.
This country's standing in the world is being dismantled brick by brick.
Anyone who believes we live in a democracy is wide of the mark, the referendum proved that. hits the fan.https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/21/e...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/23/e...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/23/v...
Denying anyone's right to vote is a direct assault on democracy.
Utterly shameful. We really have sunk to a new low.
This country's standing in the world is being dismantled brick by brick.
Leicester Loyal said:
Anyone who believes we live in a democracy is wide of the mark, the referendum proved that.
The influence of social and traditional media has on our decisions is also massive. I was reading that FB can predict with high accuracy the way you will vote in a election based on your liked photo history.
We were also sold lies on both sides
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Depending on the outcome of the EU elections, that might be the only thing that can hold the tories together. If (and it's a very big IF) the Brexit party do as predicted then neither Labour or Conservative can ignore the potential for a Brexit Party coalition which could easily turn out to be a Brexit/Corbyn coalition. Corbyn has form for ignoring MPs who disagree with his agenda and if Labour have lost votes to the Brexit party then he'll claim "it's what our people want".
Whoever the next Conservative leader/PM is, they can justifiably say that TM's deal is unacceptable and refuse to let it go forward again. The government/TM has complied with Parliament because she did get an extension to negotiate further as instructed. But if the EU refuse to negotiate the deal which has already been rejected 3 times, then a new PM can just turn up in Brussels and say "Don't want to re-negotiate ? ok that's it, WTO in October".
That might be the only thing that gets some sense out of the EU, someone who clearly is prepared to walk away and take the consequences.
b2hbm said:
Depending on the outcome of the EU elections, that might be the only thing that can hold the tories together.
If (and it's a very big IF) the Brexit party do as predicted then neither Labour or Conservative can ignore the potential for a Brexit Party coalition which could easily turn out to be a Brexit/Corbyn coalition. Corbyn has form for ignoring MPs who disagree with his agenda and if Labour have lost votes to the Brexit party then he'll claim "it's what our people want".
Whoever the next Conservative leader/PM is, they can justifiably say that TM's deal is unacceptable and refuse to let it go forward again. The government/TM has complied with Parliament because she did get an extension to negotiate further as instructed. But if the EU refuse to negotiate the deal which has already been rejected 3 times, then a new PM can just turn up in Brussels and say "Don't want to re-negotiate ? ok that's it, WTO in October".
That might be the only thing that gets some sense out of the EU, someone who clearly is prepared to walk away and take the consequences.
What isn’t sensible about the WA? The only thing I can see is the backstop - the rest is just ‘business as usual’ while we negotiate long term arrangements. If (and it's a very big IF) the Brexit party do as predicted then neither Labour or Conservative can ignore the potential for a Brexit Party coalition which could easily turn out to be a Brexit/Corbyn coalition. Corbyn has form for ignoring MPs who disagree with his agenda and if Labour have lost votes to the Brexit party then he'll claim "it's what our people want".
Whoever the next Conservative leader/PM is, they can justifiably say that TM's deal is unacceptable and refuse to let it go forward again. The government/TM has complied with Parliament because she did get an extension to negotiate further as instructed. But if the EU refuse to negotiate the deal which has already been rejected 3 times, then a new PM can just turn up in Brussels and say "Don't want to re-negotiate ? ok that's it, WTO in October".
That might be the only thing that gets some sense out of the EU, someone who clearly is prepared to walk away and take the consequences.
wisbech said:
What isn’t sensible about the WA? The only thing I can see is the backstop - the rest is just ‘business as usual’ while we negotiate long term arrangements.
The critiques are that in combination the Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration lock us into a specific negotiated agreement with the EU. In essence, it 'locks in' a final arrangement before we even begin negotiating.Not only is that arrangement economically flawed (they argue - centering on the restrictions around trade and tariff control), but it means we go into the negotiations in an already weakened state.
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