Islamaphobia in Tory party?

[fiju]

TBH, I think something needs to be done to kerb the 'religionism' in this country, which is mainly a problem with the Muslim population. They cause a lot of tension within communities due to not wanting to integrate and have everything their way. Mosques are popping up all over the place and go unchallenged. These mosques cause a lot of disruption to locals and traffic. They took over a church in the middle of my town which is located on a busy one way road, and the parking is limited. They park wherever the hell they like and cause a silly amount of traffic. And now they are planning a 2 storey extension. Why do they feel the need to congregate en masse? Can they not just pray at home?
The problem is, noone has the balls to do anything for fear of being branded a racist.

[jakesmith]

fiju said:

TBH, I think something needs to be done to kerb ......

You're a brave man posting that, for every 5 million people out there who quietly agree with you but are too afraid to say, there will be a one shining white knight on here to report you to the mods amidst a flurry of faux outrage

[bitchstewie]

fiju said:

TBH, I think something needs to be done to kerb the 'religionism' in this country, which is mainly a problem with the Muslim population. They cause a lot of tension within communities due to not wanting to integrate and have everything their way. Mosques are popping up all over the place and go unchallenged. These mosques cause a lot of disruption to locals and traffic. They took over a church in the middle of my town which is located on a busy one way road, and the parking is limited. They park wherever the hell they like and cause a silly amount of traffic. And now they are planning a 2 storey extension. Why do they feel the need to congregate en masse? Can they not just pray at home?
The problem is, noone has the balls to do anything for fear of being branded a racist.

How is any of that a Muslim thing?

My local church or primary school has most of those problems.

[jakesmith]

bhstewie said:

How is any of that a Muslim thing?

My local church or primary school has most of those problems.

Here's the clue:

fiju said:

They cause a lot of tension within communities due to not wanting to integrate and have everything their way

[plasticpig]

jakesmith said:

What utter tripe masquerading as reasonable. That really was abysmal, only if you don’t mind me saying of course.

We have one of the most carefully and painstakingly implemented / evolved legislative systems on the planet with checks and balances a plenty, and you’re advocating introducing a parallel one for the comfort of people who have chosen to leave a repressive country to live here but want to reintroduce their system of law. And you’re ok with it as long as it doesn’t exceed your subjective view of what is and isn’t reasonable. How on Earth would Sharia govern certain transactions not others!?

Stop trying to paint me as upset too El Stoat. It’s all good, just because I’ve called your feeble post out yet again doesn’t mean I’m upset. I’ve had a lovely Nando’s, not upset at all.

Jewish Beth Din courts already exist in the UK as do Sharia courts. In a civil context they act as legally binding arbitrators under the 1996 arbitration act. They have no powers with regard to criminal offences.

[rscott]

jakesmith said:

rscott said:

Really Smiffy, you're getting very upset about me daring to point out the flaw in your claim that you were sure an updated survey would show more pronounced support.

If you want to see change over time, you tend to need to compare different surveys - looking at the same one twice won't tell you much.

I'm just repeating the criticisms of others about the survey - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.co...

Just because I didn't mention the support for Sharia doesn't mean I'm trying to whitewash it. Without knowing exactly what the question was, it's hard to comment.

If they were asked if they wanted Sharia to be the primary legal system then I'd thoroughly condemn it. However, if they said they wanted to be able to follow Sharia law where compliant with British law, that's a less concerning figure.
For example, I don't have any issues with a faith wanting to carry out their own weddings in line with their laws, provided they also register the wedding as per UK law.

What utter tripe masquerading as reasonable. That really was abysmal, only if you don’t mind me saying of course.

We have one of the most carefully and painstakingly implemented / evolved legislative systems on the planet with checks and balances a plenty, and you’re advocating introducing a parallel one for the comfort of people who have chosen to leave a repressive country to live here but want to reintroduce their system of law. And you’re ok with it as long as it doesn’t exceed your subjective view of what is and isn’t reasonable. How on Earth would Sharia govern certain transactions not others!?

Stop trying to paint me as upset too El Stoat. It’s all good, just because I’ve called your feeble post out yet again doesn’t mean I’m upset. I’ve had a lovely Nando’s, not upset at all.

Yet again you fail to comprehend what's written in front of you. I clearly said that if they want to follow Sharia law where compliant with UK law that's less concerning than wanting Sharia as primary law. Yet you read that as me wanting to allow for a system where Sharia would govern some transactions and not others.
I said it was less concerning, I didn't advocate it. Let me see if I can explain for you.
If you said you were less concerned about being hit on the hand with a cricket bat than being hit in the face with the same bat, then it doesn't mean you support being hit on the hand.

[Rare]

The criticisms of thr C4 programme appears to be that they only asked Muslims in heavy Muslim areas.

Do Muslims not living with other Muslims have the same thoughts ? Maybe they do.

It does show that when Muslims live together in close communities they appear to be more Muslim than when living amongst non Muslims.

Don’t let them live together then ....

[bitchstewie]

I'm sure it happens with some people in some areas.

When you're reduced to moaning about the impact on traffic much of it just comes across as another "but muslims" moan.

[biggbn]

jakesmith said:

biggbn said:

Thanks for this excellent post. These threads wander and I guess a discussion of the main faiths is pertinent in a thread about islamaphobia? Regardless, thanks for your input which I am finding helpful and informative

Firstly, thanks for thanking R-Stoat for his impressive looking post that sadly ignores things like surveys that show 30% of Muslims would favour Sharia law in the U.K. And whilst it’s 12 years old, as I can’t be bothered to find something newer as am presently in Nando’s, I’m sure an update would be even more pronounced. I find it disturbing given the fantastic fair society we have.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6309983.stm

Secondly Thanks for keeping us on track and honest on the thread. Although drift is inevitable when even the most fanatical proponents of the title of the thread, comprising Plastic Pig, BeitchStewie, R-stoat and yourself have now all said that BoJo is in fact or likely, not racist. Less scope to stay on track.

I read, and thank, all sides to a productive discussion. You may not wish to for whatever reason, that's cool also brother man. I feel sorry for those reporting division in their communities. I live in a city with a large Muslim community, also large Eastern European community, in fact, being a small university town, many areas of the world are well represented and integrated into our locale. I have never witnessed racial or religious tension in my workplaces, and that's in thirty plus years in the same industry. Yes, there have been drunken throw away insults, but not the deep rooted division many of you allude to. I wonder why it is so different? I hope I do not experience the negatives you guys describe.

[jakesmith]

rscott said:

Let me see if I can explain for you.

Here's what the 2016 policy exchange report actually says rather than your 'this and that from 12 years ago + a cricket ball' effort. I'm sure you'll regard this as fine, I certainly don't.

PolicyExchange said:

When asked specifically about integration, a majority of respondents, 53%, said that they wanted to ‘fully integrate with non-Muslims in all aspects
of life’, while a further 37% spoke of wanting to integrate ‘on most things’ with separation in some areas, such as schooling and laws. Conversely, much
fewer people took a more minimalistic view of wanting integration ‘on some things’, whilst leading ‘a separate Islamic life as far as possible’ (6%) and
only 1% of respondents declared in favour of a ‘fully separate Islamic area in Britain, subject to Sharia Law and government’

[jakesmith]

bhstewie said:

I'm sure it happens with some people in some areas.

When you're reduced to moaning about the impact on traffic much of it just comes across as another "but muslims" moan.

Being truthful, am not a massive fan of the child exploitation gangs that I seem to read about depressingly frequently - but sorry to moan.

[bitchstewie]

The people behind that sort of thing belong in jail and thankfully many of them are there.

Nobody sensible will defend them.

It's not quite the same thing as dragging someone's religion into it because parking can be a bit tricky.

[biggbn]

jakesmith said:

rscott said:

Let me see if I can explain for you.

Here's what the 2016 policy exchange report actually says rather than your 'this and that from 12 years ago + a cricket ball' effort. I'm sure you'll regard this as fine, I certainly don't.

PolicyExchange said:

When asked specifically about integration, a majority of respondents, 53%, said that they wanted to ‘fully integrate with non-Muslims in all aspects
of life’, while a further 37% spoke of wanting to integrate ‘on most things’ with separation in some areas, such as schooling and laws. Conversely, much
fewer people took a more minimalistic view of wanting integration ‘on some things’, whilst leading ‘a separate Islamic life as far as possible’ (6%) and
only 1% of respondents declared in favour of a ‘fully separate Islamic area in Britain, subject to Sharia Law and government’

Presumably you are also against the thousands of Christian faith schools that operate in England alone, accounting for, I think, about 23-34% of schools and academies? And the separate Catholic schools that operate throughout Scotland?

[rscott]

jakesmith said:

rscott said:

Let me see if I can explain for you.

Here's what the 2016 policy exchange report actually says rather than your 'this and that from 12 years ago + a cricket ball' effort. I'm sure you'll regard this as fine, I certainly don't.

PolicyExchange said:

When asked specifically about integration, a majority of respondents, 53%, said that they wanted to ‘fully integrate with non-Muslims in all aspects
of life’, while a further 37% spoke of wanting to integrate ‘on most things’ with separation in some areas, such as schooling and laws. Conversely, much
fewer people took a more minimalistic view of wanting integration ‘on some things’, whilst leading ‘a separate Islamic life as far as possible’ (6%) and
only 1% of respondents declared in favour of a ‘fully separate Islamic area in Britain, subject to Sharia Law and government’

You introduced the 12: year old survey, not me. So don't complain when I mention it.

I'd say that 2016 survey is pretty promising. Over half want full integration, 2/3 of the others want integration on most things.
It's the remaining few percent which concern me.

And no idea where you get talk of cricket balls from. I guess you might have failed to read my post properly, something you seem exceptionally good at.

[biggbn]

Having started this thread, I will now respectfully bow out as it is heading in a direction I am extremely uncomfortable with. I wish the Tory party all the best in nipping any problems they may have in the bud and hope they can see the potential harm in not doing so simply by looking across the house at their 'learned' friends. To use an analogy, weeds growing in a garden need ripped out and destroyed, not given opportunity to grow and stifle the growth of the other plants.

All the best guys, have a great Christmas regardless of what way your tree grows. Peace, Gbn x

[rscott]

biggbn said:

Having started this thread, I will now respectfully bow out as it is heading in a direction I am extremely uncomfortable with. I wish the Tory party all the best in nipping any problems they may have in the bud and hope they can see the potential harm in not doing so simply by looking across the house at their 'learned' friends. To use an analogy, weeds growing in a garden need ripped out and destroyed, not given opportunity to grow and stifle the growth of the other plants.

All the best guys, have a great Christmas regardless of what way your tree grows. Peace, Gbn x

Agreed. I'm out for similar reasons. It's turned away from the problems in the Tory party and is heading for another generic anti-Muslim thread. The recent comments about Sharia and parking have nothing to do with any problems the Conservatives may have.

[jakesmith]

rscott said:

Agreed. I'm out for similar reasons. It's turned away from the problems in the Tory party and is heading for another generic anti-Muslim thread. The recent comments about Sharia and parking have nothing to do with any problems the Conservatives may have.

Conservatives are good at sorting out parking much better than Labour

[JuanCarlosFandango]

biggbn said:

I read, and thank, all sides to a productive discussion. You may not wish to for whatever reason, that's cool also brother man. I feel sorry for those reporting division in their communities. I live in a city with a large Muslim community, also large Eastern European community, in fact, being a small university town, many areas of the world are well represented and integrated into our locale. I have never witnessed racial or religious tension in my workplaces, and that's in thirty plus years in the same industry. Yes, there have been drunken throw away insults, but not the deep rooted division many of you allude to. I wonder why it is so different? I hope I do not experience the negatives you guys describe.

I suspect that reflects your own outlook. In a good way.

If you go looking for division and hatred you will find it. Similarly if you look for a multicultural paradise where everyone gets along fine, you can delude yourself that we have it.

If you put your faith in the public domain then you can't expect it not to be criticised and ridiculed, and if you criticise and ridicule people's faith you can't expect them to like it.

What I wish we could get away from is this idea that being Muslim, or black, white, gay, Christian etc is an all encompassing identity and the only (or primary) lens through which to view the world. The spurious idea that Boris said that about veils, therefore he is "anti Muslim." This seems designed to hive off "Muslims" as a political block which makes little more sense than hiving off people with size 9 feet as a political block.

Either we are a functionally secular, liberal country where we act, think and treat each other as individuals or we are an uneasy peace of warring tribes ready to rip into each other for any perceived slight against our tribe. It should be a fairly easy choice.

[biggbn]

JuanCarlosFandango said:

biggbn said:

I read, and thank, all sides to a productive discussion. You may not wish to for whatever reason, that's cool also brother man. I feel sorry for those reporting division in their communities. I live in a city with a large Muslim community, also large Eastern European community, in fact, being a small university town, many areas of the world are well represented and integrated into our locale. I have never witnessed racial or religious tension in my workplaces, and that's in thirty plus years in the same industry. Yes, there have been drunken throw away insults, but not the deep rooted division many of you allude to. I wonder why it is so different? I hope I do not experience the negatives you guys describe.

I suspect that reflects your own outlook. In a good way.

If you go looking for division and hatred you will find it. Similarly if you look for a multicultural paradise where everyone gets along fine, you can delude yourself that we have it.

If you put your faith in the public domain then you can't expect it not to be criticised and ridiculed, and if you criticise and ridicule people's faith you can't expect them to like it.

What I wish we could get away from is this idea that being Muslim, or black, white, gay, Christian etc is an all encompassing identity and the only (or primary) lens through which to view the world. The spurious idea that Boris said that about veils, therefore he is "anti Muslim." This seems designed to hive off "Muslims" as a political block which makes little more sense than hiving off people with size 9 feet as a political block.

Either we are a functionally secular, liberal country where we act, think and treat each other as individuals or we are an uneasy peace of warring tribes ready to rip into each other for any perceived slight against our tribe. It should be a fairly easy choice.

I know I bowed out but just wanted to thank you for this excellent post.

[plasticpig]

JuanCarlosFandango said:

What I wish we could get away from is this idea that being Muslim, or black, white, gay, Christian etc is an all encompassing identity and the only (or primary) lens through which to view the world. The spurious idea that Boris said that about veils, therefore he is "anti Muslim." This seems designed to hive off "Muslims" as a political block which makes little more sense than hiving off people with size 9 feet as a political block.

In the 2017:general election Muslims were the most homogenous block of voters when voting is analysed by religious beleif.




I can't find any data for 2019 and it would be interesting to see if this holds true this time round.