Why the UKIP will never work....
Discussion
Scuffers said:
Is UKIP the vehicle to achieve this? - I don't know.
what I do know is that it's certainly NOT LIB-LAB-Con-Green in their current forms
Absolutely not.what I do know is that it's certainly NOT LIB-LAB-Con-Green in their current forms
It should be evident from the amount of Tory defectors (politicians, donors, and voters) that UKIP are just going to be another Tory party, only with slightly more radical policy in certain areas. I very much doubt that they will do anything radically different at the level you're talking about - the level that matters.
Green are much more than an environMENTAL party - evident in their Vote for Policy success. They get written off as a purely green-focused party all too often, when they actually have a lot of policy that the people want.
I forget who, but somebody suggested that there needs to be a constitution drawn up to protect the long-term development of the country, so that changing the tie colour at no10 doesn't mean yet another premature top-down reorganisation. The problem, as I see it, is that parties come in to power with long-term goals but never get the time do act on them. Of course this is good sometimes (cough Gordon Brown) but it means a hell of a lot of money is spent on long-term investment that only lasts short term and is all thrown out with another hugely expensive reinvestment. Nothing is ever followed through properly. If there is a proper constitution drawn up by people who know what they're doing (i.e. not politicians) with solid long-term plans for rescuing the NHS / building infrastructure etc that cannot be tampered with, the govt can busy themselves with sorting out all the piecemeal temporary things that voters rave about but don't really matter.
Scuffers said:
this whole concept of left and right is just meaningless these days.
we have the leadership of the left basically doing an animal farm (just how many multi-millionaire ex-leaders of the labour party are there?)
we have pretty much the same deal with the Tory front bench (although a fair proportion of them were already rich to start with).
the only difference between them is how they go about wasting our money on whatever vanity projects they can dream up whilst fiddling round the edges of the important hard to do stuff.
we are now pretty much at the cross-roads, NHS is fubar, our road infrastructure is fubar, as are the rail and power networks.
we as a country have not done any real infrastructure builds since the 80's (and even then it was pretty minimal).
we need to change the way government does not work, the civil service just churns on regardless of who is at the top, how many name changes does the home office need before the immigration department is actually working up-to-date so at least we know who is in the country?
Same deal with the environment agency, multi-billion budget to do what exactly?
then we get to the holy cow- the NHS, we know we all want it and think we need it, but what we have currently is just not right, it's unsustainable, too much has been marketed out (PFI's, contracted services, etc), too much reliance on temporary staff, and overall lack of direction.
we need wholesale change at the top with a government that is able to recognise the issues and put the right people in place to resolve them, and ho, I don't mean shuffling a 'minister' into a post for 6 months to make his/her mark.
we need to some radical thinking, lead by people brave enough to do the right thing, and also honest enough to tell us straight.
Is UKIP the vehicle to achieve this? - I don't know.
what I do know is that it's certainly NOT LIB-LAB-Con-Green in their current forms
Yes agree, it does seem Ukip has realized this and appears to be thinking about what is best for the majority rather than the minority, big bussiness and the EU are also questionedwe have the leadership of the left basically doing an animal farm (just how many multi-millionaire ex-leaders of the labour party are there?)
we have pretty much the same deal with the Tory front bench (although a fair proportion of them were already rich to start with).
the only difference between them is how they go about wasting our money on whatever vanity projects they can dream up whilst fiddling round the edges of the important hard to do stuff.
we are now pretty much at the cross-roads, NHS is fubar, our road infrastructure is fubar, as are the rail and power networks.
we as a country have not done any real infrastructure builds since the 80's (and even then it was pretty minimal).
we need to change the way government does not work, the civil service just churns on regardless of who is at the top, how many name changes does the home office need before the immigration department is actually working up-to-date so at least we know who is in the country?
Same deal with the environment agency, multi-billion budget to do what exactly?
then we get to the holy cow- the NHS, we know we all want it and think we need it, but what we have currently is just not right, it's unsustainable, too much has been marketed out (PFI's, contracted services, etc), too much reliance on temporary staff, and overall lack of direction.
we need wholesale change at the top with a government that is able to recognise the issues and put the right people in place to resolve them, and ho, I don't mean shuffling a 'minister' into a post for 6 months to make his/her mark.
we need to some radical thinking, lead by people brave enough to do the right thing, and also honest enough to tell us straight.
Is UKIP the vehicle to achieve this? - I don't know.
what I do know is that it's certainly NOT LIB-LAB-Con-Green in their current forms
And this is terrifying the 3 main parties , seems to me Farage is game keeper turned poacher!!!
powerstroke said:
Yes agree, it does seem Ukip has realized this and appears to be thinking about what is best for the majority rather than the minority, big bussiness and the EU are also questioned
And this is terrifying the 3 main parties , seems to me Farage is game keeper turned poacher!!!
IMO they're just buying votes by adopting every trending issue as policy - something all parties do on the run-up to elections, albeit on a larger scale.And this is terrifying the 3 main parties , seems to me Farage is game keeper turned poacher!!!
As with all the other parties, it will turn out to be a massive lie if they get a controlling stake.
Scuffers said:
this whole concept of left and right is just meaningless these days.
Of course it isn't. Just because a new party is in its ascendency doesn't mean you can rewrite definitions of what is left or right.Put bluntly, Left is about the people, Right is about the economy. Policies are decided based upon these basic ideologies.
If the economy is doing well people are happy. If people are happy the economy does well. Left and right should achieve the same result. The key word bring should.
UKIP's policies are right wing. Further right than the Tories which have drifted towards the centre but still remain the main right wing party in the UK.
TKF said:
Scuffers said:
this whole concept of left and right is just meaningless these days.
Of course it isn't. Just because a new party is in its ascendency doesn't mean you can rewrite definitions of what is left or right.Put bluntly, Left is about the people, Right is about the economy. Policies are decided based upon these basic ideologies.
If the economy is doing well people are happy. If people are happy the economy does well. Left and right should achieve the same result. The key word bring should.
UKIP's policies are right wing. Further right than the Tories which have drifted towards the centre but still remain the main right wing party in the UK.
If UKIP are ever in a position of power they will (hopefully) have to face up to economic reality, which is more difficult than issuing simple soundbites that appeal to a certain part of the electorate. Here's an example of how the real world works:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeremy-...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeremy-...
Telegraph said:
Switzerland is often pointed to as a shining example of a country at the heart of Europe which nevertheless manages to live happily and prosperously outside the European Union. Yet in order to enjoy full participation in the EU’s single market – vital for the big multinationals which are such an important part of the Swiss economy – Switzerland is obliged to comply with virtually all its obligations, including free movement of labour. The February referendum puts this relationship in serious jeopardy. This weekend’s vote demonstrates that the business lobby can still win, even in a country which relative to the size of its population has seen much higher levels of immigration than our own.
There may or may not be some economic benefit to be derived from Britain being outside the EU, but it is hard to imagine there would be any at all if Britain were to impose immigration controls and thereby end up being expelled from the single market.
Or of course they could persist with the wildly optimistic line that the rest of the EU will simply roll over and let us do what ever we want because they need us more than we need them, my worry is that many UKIP voters don't care about the consequences of the UK leaving the EU, and many more are too stupid to realise that there will be consequences.There may or may not be some economic benefit to be derived from Britain being outside the EU, but it is hard to imagine there would be any at all if Britain were to impose immigration controls and thereby end up being expelled from the single market.
RYH64E said:
If UKIP are ever in a position of power they will (hopefully) have to face up to economic reality, which is more difficult than issuing simple soundbites that appeal to a certain part of the electorate.
Ask Nick Clegg how it's worked out for the Lib Dems. Populist policies like those peddled by UKIP will soon be shown up if they ever go into a coalition. I'm almost happy for it the happen to make them collapse.TKF said:
Ask Nick Clegg how it's worked out for the Lib Dems. Populist policies like those peddled by UKIP will soon be shown up if they ever go into a coalition. I'm almost happy for it the happen to make them collapse.
Indeed, but a significant proportion of the UKIP electorate are fanatics who don't care about the consequences providing we get out of the EU, and an even greater percentage are too stupid to realise that there will be consequences. It's not an appealing prospect imo.TKF said:
Scuffers said:
this whole concept of left and right is just meaningless these days.
Of course it isn't. Just because a new party is in its ascendency doesn't mean you can rewrite definitions of what is left or right.Put bluntly, Left is about the people, Right is about the economy. Policies are decided based upon these basic ideologies.
If the economy is doing well people are happy. If people are happy the economy does well. Left and right should achieve the same result. The key word bring should.
UKIP's policies are right wing. Further right than the Tories which have drifted towards the centre but still remain the main right wing party in the UK.
it's about the fact that the current left is nothing of the sort, it's not more than ever, a mix of old union bosses with champagne socialists and some gadflies for good measure.
the current tory front bench is not so different, swap union bosses with KPMG and their mates, and your pretty much there.
their policies are not left or right, they are whatever is the current trendy thing to do is, with a big pinch of self-interest from their backers.
after all, how do you explain PFI in terms of old Labour principles?
or the NHS in classic tory policies?
Like I said before, I am not at all sure UKIP is the answer, however, what I am sure of is that their mere existence is making the others have to actually think about their own positions on a lot of stuff.
I think within the current school of MP's we have now, there are probably quite a few honest decent MP's, the problem is they for the large part have been outflanked by the carrier political animals who's ego's have become all important.
RYH64E said:
TKF said:
Ask Nick Clegg how it's worked out for the Lib Dems. Populist policies like those peddled by UKIP will soon be shown up if they ever go into a coalition. I'm almost happy for it the happen to make them collapse.
Indeed, but a significant proportion of the UKIP electorate are fanatics who don't care about the consequences providing we get out of the EU, and an even greater percentage are too stupid to realise that there will be consequences. It's not an appealing prospect imo.TKF said:
It think it's a mix of don't know and don't care. I export to Europe all the time including Norway and Switzerland so know what being outside the EU means for those nations. Other than "I'll save us eleventy billion per year!!!!" I don't think most people appreciate the real implications to the economy.
OK, I'll bite.how will being outside of the EU (making the assumption that we can't negotiate a free-trade deal) going to directly impact your business?
are your EU customers no longer going to want your products/services?
CamMoreRon said:
Green are much more than an environMENTAL party - evident in their Vote for Policy success. They get written off as a purely green-focused party all too often, when they actually have a lot of policy that the people want.
There are lots of people who have environmental sympathies who are alienated by the watermelon tendencies of the Green Party - in the same way that left wing eurosceptics are alienated by UKIP's right of centre rhetoric. Working up a full manifesto is a trap laid by the mainstream parties - why should a party which is essentially single issue and will never gain an outright majority need to take a position on divisive issues which are essentially irrelevant to the party's raison d'être?otolith said:
There are lots of people who have environmental sympathies who are alienated by the watermelon tendencies of the Green Party - in the same way that left wing eurosceptics are alienated by UKIP's right of centre rhetoric. Working up a full manifesto is a trap laid by the mainstream parties - why should a party which is essentially single issue and will never gain an outright majority need to take a position on divisive issues which are essentially irrelevant to the party's raison d'être?
First, they've issued policies on a raft of issues that are beyond the ambit of the EU, they don't project themselves as single issue.Second, if their raison d'être is purely based on one issue and they do not seek power, what right do they have to disrupt the status quo. It's equivalent to the animal liberationists disrupting the democratic process to save kittens.
Scuffers said:
OK, I'll bite.
how will being outside of the EU (making the assumption that we can't negotiate a free-trade deal) going to directly impact your business?
are your EU customers no longer going to want your products/services?
Exactly...businesses will continue to trade with businesses.how will being outside of the EU (making the assumption that we can't negotiate a free-trade deal) going to directly impact your business?
are your EU customers no longer going to want your products/services?
I note that no UKIP supporters have yet commented on the quote below.
So f'ing WHAT! UKIP wants the UK to leave the EU, what does it matter who they join with to retain their voice within it.
You made this slanderous and inciteful statement: 'No it isn't, scratch below the surface and they are a racist/right-wing hate mob.'
To reach that insane conclusion, you need help for your mental state.
NOT one word of what you said is true
Their policies are NOT racist, they are for the indigenous population of the UK.
Their policies are NOT right wing, they are for the average person living in the UK.
Their policies have no hate.
They are NOT a mob.
King 
said:
said:NicD said:
JBF50 said:
NicD said:
YOU need therapy!
Ukip does deal with far-right, racist Holocaust-denier to save EU funding http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/20/uk...You made this slanderous and inciteful statement: 'No it isn't, scratch below the surface and they are a racist/right-wing hate mob.'
To reach that insane conclusion, you need help for your mental state.
NOT one word of what you said is true
Their policies are NOT racist, they are for the indigenous population of the UK.
Their policies are NOT right wing, they are for the average person living in the UK.
Their policies have no hate.
They are NOT a mob.
Scuffers said:
OK, I'll bite.
how will being outside of the EU (making the assumption that we can't negotiate a free-trade deal) going to directly impact your business?
are your EU customers no longer going to want your products/services?
It's not the tarrif I'm concerned about and I fully expect an agreement similar to Switzerland should we ever leave.how will being outside of the EU (making the assumption that we can't negotiate a free-trade deal) going to directly impact your business?
are your EU customers no longer going to want your products/services?
However there is much more red tape vs EU trade. Selling to Belgium is no harder than selling to Leeds whereas to Switzerland there are more hoops to jump through for both sides. Cost/hassle increases, orders decrease.
That's just for exports. If you look at the farmers here they are subsidised by payments from CAP but also via import tariffs which hold up food prices by keeping out cheaper produce. If we went it alone we'd either have to put up our own tariffs and p
s off USA or see British farmers destroyed by imports from heavily subsidised US produce. Norway and Switzerland chose to put up tarrifs and they have the highest food costs in Europe.Those are just 2 examples. There are plenty more but it'll never get heard over the rhetoric of EU=bad.
otolith said:
There are lots of people who have environmental sympathies who are alienated by the watermelon tendencies of the Green Party - in the same way that left wing eurosceptics are alienated by UKIP's right of centre rhetoric. Working up a full manifesto is a trap laid by the mainstream parties - why should a party which is essentially single issue and will never gain an outright majority need to take a position on divisive issues which are essentially irrelevant to the party's raison d'être?
Well.. as I had said they aren't a single issue party. The name Green Party is misleading and may be the single biggest thing holding them back from success.Their core belief is that humans need to find a way to live as cleanly and sustainably as possible - which should really be a no-brainer; that doesn't mean their only policies are about the environment. There is a LOT of policy info on their website, and quite a lot of detail.
HonestIago said:
Scuffers said:
OK, I'll bite.
how will being outside of the EU (making the assumption that we can't negotiate a free-trade deal) going to directly impact your business?
are your EU customers no longer going to want your products/services?
Exactly...businesses will continue to trade with businesses.how will being outside of the EU (making the assumption that we can't negotiate a free-trade deal) going to directly impact your business?
are your EU customers no longer going to want your products/services?
Incidently, luckily I'm not in the automotive business because import duties on non-EU manufactured cars are 10% and on trucks they're 22%, that's a huge cost for our automotive sector to absorb or a huge premium for their EU customers to have to pay for the privilege of buying UK made cars.
King said:
said:otolith said:
There are lots of people who have environmental sympathies who are alienated by the watermelon tendencies of the Green Party - in the same way that left wing eurosceptics are alienated by UKIP's right of centre rhetoric. Working up a full manifesto is a trap laid by the mainstream parties - why should a party which is essentially single issue and will never gain an outright majority need to take a position on divisive issues which are essentially irrelevant to the party's raison d'être?
First, they've issued policies on a raft of issues that are beyond the ambit of the EU, they don't project themselves as single issue.Second, if their raison d'être is purely based on one issue and they do not seek power, what right do they have to disrupt the status quo. It's equivalent to the animal liberationists disrupting the democratic process to save kittens.
These parties which are essentially only concerned with one principle (protection of the environment, or withdrawal from the EU) should not have done what they have done and been drawn into writing up wide ranging policies as if they are ever likely to form a government as anything but a junior partner in a coalition. It just narrows their appeal, in the case of the Greens, to left wing environmentalists and in the case of UKIP to right wing eurosceptics.
Scuffers said:
OK, I'll bite.
how will being outside of the EU (making the assumption that we can't negotiate a free-trade deal) going to directly impact your business?
are your EU customers no longer going to want your products/services?
I think the issues of "competitive advantage" and "absolute advantage" come into play. If there is absolutely no difference in trading costs between being in the EU and being outside then things will probably continue as normal. However if there is a 5% increase in cost (due to trade barriers for example) then it may make it more attractive for Pierre to buy widgets from Hans or Piotr (within EU) rather than from Barry (who is now outside). Of course we could impose similar trade barriers to EU imports but that would only work if we could import the same goods from elsewhere. So the worst case scenario is Pierre buys his goods from elsewhere in the EU rather than the UK but we still have to buy cheese from Pierre because there isn't a comparable alternative for Brie and Camembert.how will being outside of the EU (making the assumption that we can't negotiate a free-trade deal) going to directly impact your business?
are your EU customers no longer going to want your products/services?
Obviously if we have unique goods/services that can't be substituted then we'll be fine.
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