The Gender Non-binary debate.

[andy_s]

Brads67 said:

I'm never cruel to strangers so moot point.

Buty what if your belief is that someone cannot change gender. You have that right to think that way no ? so if you are saying something based on your belief then you are as much in the right as the next person.?

I can see why this thread went hundreds of pages.

It's also your right not to express your thoughts if it distresses unnecessarily someone else if there is no good end I suppose, that's the 'social lubricant' that means we coalesce as a society rather than fight everyone over petty inconsequentialities.

[98elise]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Brads67 said:

I'm never cruel to strangers so moot point.

Buty what if your belief is that someone cannot change gender. You have that right to think that way no ? so if you are saying something based on your belief then you are as much in the right as the next person.?

I can see why this thread went hundreds of pages.

Well, one of the reasons this thread runs to hundreds of pages is that people keep asking the same questions again and again.

We've covered this many times already.

You meet someone who is clearly presenting as female and is introduced to you as female. Do you:
a) Play along with things out of politeness, despite your belief that they aren't really female.
b) Make a big song and dance about overriding their preference and deliberately use male pronouns for them because of your sense of 'right', even though this is contrary to their wishes?

It would be like you introducing yourself as Brad, and someone saying "You look more like a Doug to me" and then calling you Doug thereafter. It's kinda rude, no?

I would hope most would choose a). It's fine to have a differing opinion but not to go out of your way to objectionable to another individual.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

98elise said:

I would hope most would choose a). It's fine to have a differing opinion but not to go out of your way to objectionable to another individual.

Well, quite.

[The Li-ion King]

Noodle1982 said:

I can't think of a single trans person that's in the public eye that convincingly looks like the gender they present as.

Laverne Cox looks good, she's even got a boyfriend and has been in the papers talking about her love life. Sophia Hutchins (the young friend of Caitlyn Jenner) looks like a very nice girl, but I think the older a person is when they transition (i.e India Willoughby, Kelly Malonie, Caitlyn Jenner), especially if known for years as a man beforehand, it is very hard to pass or be convincing. Certain individuals will always bang on about being misgendered (India Willoughby did this a lot on Big Brother), and I know that can happen and it must be upsetting, but it's how the matter is dealt with.

Some people will be jerks and deliberately call a trans woman 'sir' or 'mate' as in the case of the lazy shop workers in earlier posts, some may be thrown by the voice, or appearance and mean no malice at all

[Clockwork Cupcake]

The Li-ion King said:

some may be thrown by the voice, or appearance and mean no malice at all

Oh, absolutely. And I was sure that is what it was in my case that I mentioned (that sparked this off) which was why I didn't challenge it. It just knocked my self-confidence, that's all.

[Fermit and Sexy Sarah]

The Li-ion King said:

Noodle1982 said:

I can't think of a single trans person that's in the public eye that convincingly looks like the gender they present as.

Laverne Cox looks good, she's even got a boyfriend and has been in the papers talking about her love life. Sophia Hutchins (the young friend of Caitlyn Jenner) looks like a very nice girl, but I think the older a person is when they transition (i.e India Willoughby, Kelly Malonie, Caitlyn Jenner), especially if known for years as a man beforehand, it is very hard to pass or be convincing. Certain individuals will always bang on about being misgendered (India Willoughby did this a lot on Big Brother), and I know that can happen and it must be upsetting, but it's how the matter is dealt with.

Some people will be jerks and deliberately call a trans woman 'sir' or 'mate' as in the case of the lazy shop workers in earlier posts, some may be thrown by the voice, or appearance and mean no malice at all

Nicole Gibson mentioned a page back is a good shout. I mean come on, this strolls up to you in a bar, and starts talking to you seductively, you wouldn't count your lucky stars?

[Brads67]

That would depend on your outlook once you knew her history, and then on you're ability to react in a polite manner if said outlook was not favourable.

One thing I don't get is people being upset towards folk with negative opinions about trans. Evryone has a choice as I've said.
As long as you are not abusing anyone right ?

[Fermit and Sexy Sarah]

Brads67 said:

That would depend on your outlook once you knew her history, and then on you're ability to react in a polite manner if said outlook was not favourable.

One thing I don't get is people being upset towards folk with negative opinions about trans. Evryone has a choice as I've said.
As long as you are not abusing anyone right ?

Well, if after learning that, it's not your bag then why would she be offended if you said 'I'm sorry, it's not for me'. She wouldn't be. If you replied 'fk off you inter-sexual freak!!' then she would be quite right to be upset at the negative opinion.

Why would you be upset? As CC said once, quoting a rebuff from a come on, 'hey, a compliment's a compliment'

[Brads67]

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:

Well, if after learning that, it's not your bag then why would she be offended if you said 'I'm sorry, it's not for me'. She wouldn't be. If you replied 'fk off you inter-sexual freak!!' then she would be quite right to be upset at the negative opinion.

Why would you be upset? As CC said once, quoting a rebuff from a come on, 'hey, a compliment's a compliment'

I'm not saying I would be upset, I'm simply joing in the thread is all.

And some people may think that finding out if a come on was welcomed, before making the come on would be the best tactic.
And that off course goes for anyone, not just trans.

[Fermit and Sexy Sarah]

Brads67 said:

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:

Well, if after learning that, it's not your bag then why would she be offended if you said 'I'm sorry, it's not for me'. She wouldn't be. If you replied 'fk off you inter-sexual freak!!' then she would be quite right to be upset at the negative opinion.

Why would you be upset? As CC said once, quoting a rebuff from a come on, 'hey, a compliment's a compliment'

I'm not saying I would be upset, I'm simply joing in the thread is all.

And some people may think that finding out if a come on was welcomed, before making the come on would be the best tactic.
And that off course goes for anyone, not just trans.

That is actually fair comment, RE qualifying if the come on is welcome territory. And not 'because Trans', because the other person could be married, gay, out with his parents....

Edited by Fermit and Sexy Sarah on Sunday 28th April 18:15

[Fermit and Sexy Sarah]

George Smiley said:

WorldBoss said:

Ouch.

Unfortunately I can relate

Just had my first date after starting transition. I was feeling on top of the world, thought I was looking good and passing enough at least good enough to warrant the right pronouns. Let me swing into Tesco from a bottle of wine to celebrate.

Nope. I get ID'ed (Still in my old name, but I'm nearly 30 for christ sake and DO NOT look underaged) and then a rather aggressive "Thanks, SIR" when the spotty oik returned my license without the decency to even make eye contact :-/.

Similarly, no fuss. I paid, went home and continued my life.

Anecdotally, not the first time something similar has happened. It seems if I make an effort with my appearance, I almost always get ID'ed and a similarly awkward exchange. Chuck on a random polo shirt with me looking half dead and buy the same stuff, no problems. Ever. Life is strange .

But all in all the day has inspired me to bump up my coming out at work so I can finally get my documents changed so I can rightly go all berserk in these situations like all trans peeps are supposed to. /s

That sucks. For all my concerns about nonexistent scenarios there’s no need for someone to be like that

One of the first posts you've made on this thread that I agree with George. Utter dickish behaviour

[George Smiley]

Noodle1982 said:

Clockwork Cupcake said:

rover 623gsi said:

I suspect that the vast majority of trans women do not look 'pass' as women. At best, they pass as a trans woman. At worst they pass as a bloke trying like a woman. I also suspect that most people who tell a trans woman that they look like a woman are doing so in order to be polite.

As I'm sure CC knows, the female body is very different to a male body in many ways other than just genitalia. For example, even if a male and female of the same height stood next to each other it would easy to tell them apart. The male will have larger feet and hands than the female. He will also have broader shoulders. The female will have longer legs, wider hips. There is a whole bunch of other stuff.. Males and females even have different elbow joints. All of these things mean that in 99% of cases it is pretty easy to tell the difference between a male and a female despite what clothes they may be wearing.

You suspect?

So what you actually mean is that you don't have a fking clue what you are talking about, and you're just talking ignorant prejudiced st. Quelle surprise.

I can't think of a single trans person that's in the public eye that convincingly looks like the gender they present as.

Frank Boff?

[Brads67]

George Smiley said:

Frank Boff?

Lol, but that was only once, and was the cocaines fault.

[InitialDave]

Brads67 said:

I'm never cruel to strangers so moot point.

Buty what if your belief is that someone cannot change gender. You have that right to think that way no ? so if you are saying something based on your belief then you are as much in the right as the next person.?

A presumed nonexistence of a deity doesn't prevent me being perfectly polite to the various believers who do the rounds every now and then knocking on doors. I don't have to agree with then to choose not to antagonise them.




I am slightly interested in what'd happen if two different factions turned up at the same time though.

[Spanna]

Davos123 said:

Brads67 said:

So if I call a man Mr because he is obviously a man, then he lets me know he prefers to be a female, I'm the arse ?

If someone asks to be called a martian, that's fine with me, but I'm confused as to why I would be in the wrong for stating the obvious.

To the first line - only if you continue to misgender them.

To the second, there are hundreds of pages here you can read to get a better understanding of why a trans woman is a woman.

And if someone continues to misgender, what’s the recourse against them?

[_dobbo_]

Spanna said:

And if someone continues to misgender, what’s the recourse against them?

Why does there need to be any recourse?

I've experienced utter tts many times in my life, I guess the only recourse is to avoid them at all costs. I'm not trans but that seems fairly simple to me.

[Noodle1982]

Spanna said:

Davos123 said:

Brads67 said:

So if I call a man Mr because he is obviously a man, then he lets me know he prefers to be a female, I'm the arse ?

If someone asks to be called a martian, that's fine with me, but I'm confused as to why I would be in the wrong for stating the obvious.

To the first line - only if you continue to misgender them.

To the second, there are hundreds of pages here you can read to get a better understanding of why a trans woman is a woman.

And if someone continues to misgender, what’s the recourse against them?

Death by a thousand cuts!

Online hate campaign against the person.

Calls for the offending person to be fired by their employer.

Doxing

Being labelled transphobic

The list goes on....

[George Smiley]

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:

Nicole Gibson mentioned a page back is a good shout. I mean come on, this strolls up to you in a bar, and starts talking to you seductively, you wouldn't count your lucky stars?

Yes, but I’d hope she’d tell me before the finger blasting

[Noodle1982]

George Smiley said:

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:

Nicole Gibson mentioned a page back is a good shout. I mean come on, this strolls up to you in a bar, and starts talking to you seductively, you wouldn't count your lucky stars?

Yes, but I’d hope she’d tell me before the finger blasting

Just watched an interview involving her and while she does indeed look female as soon as she starts to talk it's obvious all is not what it seems.

[Gooseberry]

Spanna said:

And if someone continues to misgender, what’s the recourse against them?

Call the police?

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/02/24/a-charity-ca...

"We had to get the police involved because a young student was being regularly misgendered by his tutor. The tutor dismissed it until he was informed that it counted as a hate crime.”