Tommy Robinson attacked at McDonald’s
Discussion
JuanCarlosFandango said:
It strikes me that we have a big asymmetry between attitudes to left and right wing "extremism."
Owing to a very legitimate horror of Hitler and the Nazis we're very jumpy about a working class movement that appears to be targeting an ethnic minority, but pretty blasé about things like this: a gang of masked thugs threatening violence against someone because of their political views.
On what planet is that acceptable? By what possible route could that lead to a more tolerant and pluralistic society? Whatever you think of Tommy Robinson and his views it is absolutely disgusting behaviour which has no place in a civilised society.
It's also dangerous.
Firstly neither a prosecution for hate speech nor street battles with communists actually stopped the rise of the Nazi party. In fact they quite possibly fanned the flames, by giving the impression that the ludicrous ideals of Adolf Hitler were somehow linked with the legitimate grievances that drew people to his party in a way the authorities would rather suppress.
If Tommy Robinson is a budding British führer it won't be beaten out of him outside Wetherspoons and it won't be prosecuted out of him. It should be discussed calmly and logically and the folly exposed by reason.
Secondly it gives us a huge blindside where the left have almost free rein to engage in some truly foul behaviour and be deemed 'a bit radical' or eccentric. As though supporting Hamas, harassing Jewish parliamentarians and beating up political opponents were some logical extension of nationalising the railways and having unisex toilets in colleges.
This opens the door to a very real tyranny. Not of angry blokes with tattoos shouting about this or that, but of opportunistic scumbags who will latch on to unchecked power wherever they find it, and use righteous indignation however they can get away with it to impose their world view.
That's real fascism. That's real tyranny. It cost millions of lives in the 20th century and not only when angry little men with moustaches set their sights on a particular ethnic group.
The problem with this attitude is that you can't reason with unreasonable people, they're not interested in finding common ground. It's their way or no way.Owing to a very legitimate horror of Hitler and the Nazis we're very jumpy about a working class movement that appears to be targeting an ethnic minority, but pretty blasé about things like this: a gang of masked thugs threatening violence against someone because of their political views.
On what planet is that acceptable? By what possible route could that lead to a more tolerant and pluralistic society? Whatever you think of Tommy Robinson and his views it is absolutely disgusting behaviour which has no place in a civilised society.
It's also dangerous.
Firstly neither a prosecution for hate speech nor street battles with communists actually stopped the rise of the Nazi party. In fact they quite possibly fanned the flames, by giving the impression that the ludicrous ideals of Adolf Hitler were somehow linked with the legitimate grievances that drew people to his party in a way the authorities would rather suppress.
If Tommy Robinson is a budding British führer it won't be beaten out of him outside Wetherspoons and it won't be prosecuted out of him. It should be discussed calmly and logically and the folly exposed by reason.
Secondly it gives us a huge blindside where the left have almost free rein to engage in some truly foul behaviour and be deemed 'a bit radical' or eccentric. As though supporting Hamas, harassing Jewish parliamentarians and beating up political opponents were some logical extension of nationalising the railways and having unisex toilets in colleges.
This opens the door to a very real tyranny. Not of angry blokes with tattoos shouting about this or that, but of opportunistic scumbags who will latch on to unchecked power wherever they find it, and use righteous indignation however they can get away with it to impose their world view.
That's real fascism. That's real tyranny. It cost millions of lives in the 20th century and not only when angry little men with moustaches set their sights on a particular ethnic group.
You have to meet them on the street, get in their face, stand up to their violence if it comes to it. Make sure they know that they aren't welcome in a civilised society.
"a person who holds extreme political or religious views, especially one who advocates illegal, violent, or other extreme action."
Don't know his politics or religious views. Actually comes across as a libertarian - an extremist libertarian? (Can that be a thing?), in that he is vociferously against an ideology he sees will take away freedom in the West.
I guess he's extremely against moderate Islam if you want to pointlessly label him.
The guy really doesn't bring many ideas to the table, pretty crazy that's all it takes to live rent free in so many heads.
Don't know his politics or religious views. Actually comes across as a libertarian - an extremist libertarian? (Can that be a thing?), in that he is vociferously against an ideology he sees will take away freedom in the West.
I guess he's extremely against moderate Islam if you want to pointlessly label him.
The guy really doesn't bring many ideas to the table, pretty crazy that's all it takes to live rent free in so many heads.
colin_p said:
An extremely pertinent point.
The left have a massive blindspot when it comes islam. The most unlikely of bedfellows. It is of course easily explained that in the heirachy of causes that the left involve themselves in, that racism, at the expense of everything else, is top trump. Even when islam transcends every and all races.
As for him being preceived as far right whilst opposing a far right ideology, it is easy to see how many leftists fail to compute the difference when their own anti-fascists (antifa) behave like actual facsists whilst trying to be anti-facsist against people who are not fascist in the first place.
It doesn't take much, without any realisation, for them to go full "animal farm".
The schoolboy error you're making here is in assuming that anyone who is opposed to Robinson's message must be left-wing. I am not left-wing; I think that Robinson is human detritus.The left have a massive blindspot when it comes islam. The most unlikely of bedfellows. It is of course easily explained that in the heirachy of causes that the left involve themselves in, that racism, at the expense of everything else, is top trump. Even when islam transcends every and all races.
As for him being preceived as far right whilst opposing a far right ideology, it is easy to see how many leftists fail to compute the difference when their own anti-fascists (antifa) behave like actual facsists whilst trying to be anti-facsist against people who are not fascist in the first place.
It doesn't take much, without any realisation, for them to go full "animal farm".
ZedLeg said:
The problem with this attitude is that you can't reason with unreasonable people, they're not interested in finding common ground. It's their way or no way.
You have to meet them on the street, get in their face, stand up to their violence if it comes to it. Make sure they know that they aren't welcome in a civilised society.
Oh dear God I hope this is a joke post . You have to meet them on the street, get in their face, stand up to their violence if it comes to it. Make sure they know that they aren't welcome in a civilised society.
colin_p said:
An extremely pertinent point.
The left have a massive blindspot when it comes islam. The most unlikely of bedfellows. It is of course easily explained that in the heirachy of causes that the left involve themselves in, that racism, at the expense of everything else, is top trump. Even when islam transcends every and all races.
As for him being preceived as far right whilst opposing a far right ideology, it is easy to see how many leftists fail to compute the difference when their own anti-fascists (antifa) behave like actual facsists whilst trying to be anti-facsist against people who are not fascist in the first place.
It doesn't take much, without any realisation, for them to go full "animal farm".
It is truly bizarre. It's their vote farm though. They seem very keen to ignore morals when it comes to Islam's wrongdoings in the world as it would destroy the huge majority they get in votes from them. It does then lead to large gains for the anti Islam parties when people realise they don't want in their culture after all (Germany, Sweden, Italy).The left have a massive blindspot when it comes islam. The most unlikely of bedfellows. It is of course easily explained that in the heirachy of causes that the left involve themselves in, that racism, at the expense of everything else, is top trump. Even when islam transcends every and all races.
As for him being preceived as far right whilst opposing a far right ideology, it is easy to see how many leftists fail to compute the difference when their own anti-fascists (antifa) behave like actual facsists whilst trying to be anti-facsist against people who are not fascist in the first place.
It doesn't take much, without any realisation, for them to go full "animal farm".
"Muslims voted overwhelmingly for Labour, with 85% having preferred for Jeremy Corbyn’s party, and 11% supported the Conservatives. Majorities, albeit somewhat reduced, voted Labour at the 2005-2015 general elections. amongst Jews, a strong majority expressed support for the Conservative Party (63%), with around a quarter (26%) saying they voted for Labour. This builds on the plurality support for the Conservative Party shown by Jewish voters at the 2005-2015 general elections. Labour also received a plurality of the vote amongst those belonging to other religions (48%) and those with no religious affiliation (47%). amongst these two groups, the Conservative vote share was, respectively, 33% and 32%."
http://www.brin.ac.uk/2017/religious-affiliation-a...
Seti said:
ZedLeg said:
The problem with this attitude is that you can't reason with unreasonable people, they're not interested in finding common ground. It's their way or no way.
You have to meet them on the street, get in their face, stand up to their violence if it comes to it. Make sure they know that they aren't welcome in a civilised society.
Oh dear God I hope this is a joke post . You have to meet them on the street, get in their face, stand up to their violence if it comes to it. Make sure they know that they aren't welcome in a civilised society.
Confrontation and never taking a step back is fine, but there is a line that shouldn't be crossed and that is to deal with them with violence, much as it might be tempting.
Boydie88 said:
"a person who holds extreme political or religious views, especially one who advocates illegal, violent, or other extreme action."
Don't know his politics or religious views. Actually comes across as a libertarian - an extremist libertarian? (Can that be a thing?), in that he is vociferously against an ideology he sees will take away freedom in the West.
I guess he's extremely against moderate Islam if you want to pointlessly label him.
The guy really doesn't bring many ideas to the table, pretty crazy that's all it takes to live rent free in so many heads.
Against moderate Islam? The sort of slip up he would make. He’s ostensibly anti radical Islam (aren’t we all), but it’s hard to find too many of those types, so it invariably leaks into not liking Muslims. Moderate or radical. Don't know his politics or religious views. Actually comes across as a libertarian - an extremist libertarian? (Can that be a thing?), in that he is vociferously against an ideology he sees will take away freedom in the West.
I guess he's extremely against moderate Islam if you want to pointlessly label him.
The guy really doesn't bring many ideas to the table, pretty crazy that's all it takes to live rent free in so many heads.
colin_p said:
Boydie88 said:
Robinson is anti Islamisation of the West. And not much else it seems. And going by the number of followers it's a message that strikes a chord with a lot of the working class.
What makes him far right in opposing far right ideology (going by other Islam run countries) taking over?
An extremely pertinent point.What makes him far right in opposing far right ideology (going by other Islam run countries) taking over?
The left have a massive blindspot when it comes islam. The most unlikely of bedfellows. It is of course easily explained that in the heirachy of causes that the left involve themselves in, that racism, at the expense of everything else, is top trump. Even when islam transcends every and all races.
As for him being preceived as far right whilst opposing a far right ideology, it is easy to see how many leftists fail to compute the difference when their own anti-fascists (antifa) behave like actual facsists whilst trying to be anti-facsist against people who are not fascist in the first place.
It doesn't take much, without any realisation, for them to go full "animal farm".
Forget the whole left and right thing. This is about right and wrong and anyone who defends that scumbag is always going to be wrong.
Alpinestars said:
Boydie88 said:
"a person who holds extreme political or religious views, especially one who advocates illegal, violent, or other extreme action."
Don't know his politics or religious views. Actually comes across as a libertarian - an extremist libertarian? (Can that be a thing?), in that he is vociferously against an ideology he sees will take away freedom in the West.
I guess he's extremely against moderate Islam if you want to pointlessly label him.
The guy really doesn't bring many ideas to the table, pretty crazy that's all it takes to live rent free in so many heads.
Against moderate Islam? The sort of slip up he would make. He’s ostensibly anti radical Islam (aren’t we all), but it’s hard to find too many of those types, so it invariably leaks into not liking Muslims. Moderate or radical. Don't know his politics or religious views. Actually comes across as a libertarian - an extremist libertarian? (Can that be a thing?), in that he is vociferously against an ideology he sees will take away freedom in the West.
I guess he's extremely against moderate Islam if you want to pointlessly label him.
The guy really doesn't bring many ideas to the table, pretty crazy that's all it takes to live rent free in so many heads.
I guess it comes down to what you class moderate as though.
ZedLeg said:
The problem with this attitude is that you can't reason with unreasonable people, they're not interested in finding common ground. It's their way or no way.
You have to meet them on the street, get in their face, stand up to their violence if it comes to it. Make sure they know that they aren't welcome in a civilised society.
Well I think it should be tried first.You have to meet them on the street, get in their face, stand up to their violence if it comes to it. Make sure they know that they aren't welcome in a civilised society.
If he was standing outside a mosque with a burning torch or harassing brown people in the street then fighting and defending with violence is legitimate.
Creeping round in balaclavas "confronting" people about their political views (or your perception there of) is, and will only ever be, disgusting thuggery. And anyone supporting this while claiming to be some sort of liberal or defender of tolerance should be ashamed of themselves.
IforB said:
colin_p said:
Boydie88 said:
Robinson is anti Islamisation of the West. And not much else it seems. And going by the number of followers it's a message that strikes a chord with a lot of the working class.
What makes him far right in opposing far right ideology (going by other Islam run countries) taking over?
An extremely pertinent point.What makes him far right in opposing far right ideology (going by other Islam run countries) taking over?
The left have a massive blindspot when it comes islam. The most unlikely of bedfellows. It is of course easily explained that in the heirachy of causes that the left involve themselves in, that racism, at the expense of everything else, is top trump. Even when islam transcends every and all races.
As for him being preceived as far right whilst opposing a far right ideology, it is easy to see how many leftists fail to compute the difference when their own anti-fascists (antifa) behave like actual facsists whilst trying to be anti-facsist against people who are not fascist in the first place.
It doesn't take much, without any realisation, for them to go full "animal farm".
Forget the whole left and right thing. This is about right and wrong and anyone who defends that scumbag is always going to be wrong.
What is there to oppose in his pretty basic political views?
Edit - presumably you have the same feelings to Douglas Murray who from what I can tell has very similar views to Robinson but isn't a working class gobs
te?Yep, he's got a s
tty personality and the mortgage fraud is a bit iffy but the attention he garners for it is bizarre. Get's about as much concern in my mind as anyone else who I think is a bit of a dhead, sod all.The resources our Police are spending tracing his every step is bizarre when he's little more than your average lower working class man with a small platform... a platform the media and those that seems to let him live in their minds, love to give him.
Edited by Boydie88 on Monday 15th October 12:00
IforB said:
It isn't and personally, I have little issue with it. Obviously it is not the right way to deal with scum like the EDL or Yaxley-Lennon, but it does show them, that their opponents don't fear them and their ways. That is an important message to have out there, even if violence is never the answer.
Confrontation and never taking a step back is fine, but there is a line that shouldn't be crossed and that is to deal with them with violence, much as it might be tempting.
Ultimately the best solution is to have them ridiculed into obscurity. Sadly that isn't happening as they're getting far too much support and are always the first to cry FREEZE PEACH when someone criticises them.Confrontation and never taking a step back is fine, but there is a line that shouldn't be crossed and that is to deal with them with violence, much as it might be tempting.
Of course violence can work, there's a reason that Boshevik revolutionaries never got anywhere in Germany in the 1920's... The Nazi sturmabteilung beat the living crap out of any known Bolshevik, even killed a few. Hence in Martin Niemoller's poem, the first one's they first came for were the communists (then the trade unionists). However as this example shows, violent solutions often end up with worse results than the thing they were trying to stop, so violence is an absolute last resort.
The reason that the radical left in the UK is so ineffective (yes, they are completely ineffective) is that no-one takes them seriously. They have no support, the only one's who think there's any kind of threat from the far left in the UK are the far right trying to use whataboutism to disguise their own extremism.
As for Yaxely-Lennon, I have faith in the British Justice System in dealing with him. He did break the law and doesn't deserve special treatment because he's a political hot potato.
Countdown said:
e30m3Mark said:
Why do TR and EDL etc no longer consider themselves to be right wing? (Genuine question)
Simple. It's not good PR to be associated with the Nazis. Hence the numerous efforts to suggest that Hitler was a "leftie".Countdown said:
Antifa are “anti fascist” – they hate fascists. I have no problem with that. As far as I can see the only people who would are fascists.
We should judge people on their actions, not their label 
Boydie88 said:
Moderates are the ones that support the extremist action but won't have the guts to do it themselves.
I guess it comes down to what you class moderate as though.
The average Muslim on the street is generally moderate. How do they support the extremists’ actions?I guess it comes down to what you class moderate as though.
Turn that round, does the average TR fan support extremists? Does TR support extremists?
We can all label and homogenise innocent people.
Alpinestars said:
Boydie88 said:
Moderates are the ones that support the extremist action but won't have the guts to do it themselves.
I guess it comes down to what you class moderate as though.
The average Muslim on the street is generally moderate. I guess it comes down to what you class moderate as though.
The Dangerous Elk said:
Alpinestars said:
Boydie88 said:
Moderates are the ones that support the extremist action but won't have the guts to do it themselves.
I guess it comes down to what you class moderate as though.
The average Muslim on the street is generally moderate. I guess it comes down to what you class moderate as though.
Hopefully, your one man’s moderate mantra, applies equally to TR and his supporters.
IforB said:
This is about right and wrong and anyone who defends that scumbag is always going to be wrong.
Just like a turkey voting for christmas whilst stabbing itself in the eye with the little pencil on a string at the polling booth.Right and wrong.
Right is taking heed of various warnings, and not just from TR, that our civilisation and way of life is at risk.
Wrong is ignoring those warnings and letting an entity gain traction and take hold that will change our way of life completely. Just as it has done to every country or region that it has taken over for the last fourteen hundred years. Wrong is also giving that entity all sorts of concessions and privilages it doesn't deserve, a bit like, and using the old cliche, feeding the crocodile hoping it will eat you last, but it will still eat you. It seems many welcome that or are too stupid to listen to, or ignor, the message.
What are you fighting for exactly? It seems you are fighting the messenger whilst the crocodile is laughing at you licking its lips.
Remember, you don't have to like the messenger. I don't like TR either but fully understand his message.
Alpinestars said:
Boydie88 said:
Moderates are the ones that support the extremist action but won't have the guts to do it themselves.
I guess it comes down to what you class moderate as though.
The average Muslim on the street is generally moderate. How do they support the extremists’ actions?I guess it comes down to what you class moderate as though.
Turn that round, does the average TR fan support extremists? Does TR support extremists?
We can all label and homogenise innocent people.
The average Muslim opposes homosexuality if you want to play the average card.
There's a 27% chance they're sympathetic to the Charlie Hebdo attacks - and then you've got to ask who in their right mind would admit to that being their position in the first place so I suspect the 10% that refused or said I don't know are likely harbouring bad thoughts too.
They're who Robinson and his followers see as moderates and I'm sympathetic to their cause in being concerned with what it could bring in the future when you look at Italy, Germany, France and Sweden.
It's the poor areas that will more likely to see the bad effects first so it's understandable they want no part of it.
And to address your turn around, I'd say the moderate (if you want to go with average) Robinson follower is simply anti the Islamisation of the West. To suggest they must all be Nazis because some idiots in his followers have given a Nazi salute is the same argument as the same stupid argument as saying all Muslims are terrorists.
Edited by Boydie88 on Monday 15th October 13:41
colin_p said:
IforB said:
This is about right and wrong and anyone who defends that scumbag is always going to be wrong.
Just like a turkey voting for christmas whilst stabbing itself in the eye with the little pencil on a string at the polling booth.Right and wrong.
Right is taking heed of various warnings, and not just from TR, that our civilisation and way of life is at risk.
Wrong is ignoring those warnings and letting an entity gain traction and take hold that will change our way of life completely. Just as it has done to every country or region that it has taken over for the last fourteen hundred years. Wrong is also giving that entity all sorts of concessions and privilages it doesn't deserve, a bit like, and using the old cliche, feeding the crocodile hoping it will eat you last, but it will still eat you. It seems many welcome that or are too stupid to listen to, or ignor, the message.
What are you fighting for exactly? It seems you are fighting the messenger whilst the crocodile is laughing at you licking its lips.
Remember, you don't have to like the messenger. I don't like TR either but fully understand his message.
Seriously, I hear this all the time "oh you have to listen to these warnings and take them seriously etc.etc." However, the fact is that there is no coming Muslim apocalypse, the EU is not about to fail and the sun will continue to shine.
If you want warnings to take heed of, then look at the warnings with some basis in fact. Global warming, plastic pollution, deforestation, rising sea-levels etc.etc.
Those are the warnings we should be worried about, not some nebulous made up nonsense designed purely as a way of justifying awful behaviour as if it has a point.
You obviously don't quite get the fact that we live in a multi-cultural society and are scared witless of those who are a bit different. What exactly are you expecting to happen? Sharia law, ISIS marching up and down the high street beheading people left right and centre?
Come on man, that is just bonkers. I'll just ask, have you actually ever met someone who is Muslim?
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