The Gender Non-binary debate.

[Noodle1982]

Gooseberry said:

Spanna said:

And if someone continues to misgender, what’s the recourse against them?

Call the police?

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/02/24/a-charity-ca...

"We had to get the police involved because a young student was being regularly misgendered by his tutor. The tutor dismissed it until he was informed that it counted as a hate crime.”

Mermaids were the charity involved. That says it all.

[Scottish Wyldcat]

Noodle1982 said:

Gooseberry said:

Spanna said:

And if someone continues to misgender, what’s the recourse against them?

Call the police?

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/02/24/a-charity-ca...

"We had to get the police involved because a young student was being regularly misgendered by his tutor. The tutor dismissed it until he was informed that it counted as a hate crime.”

Mermaids were the charity involved. That says it all.

First sentence in that article:

"Parents were forced to call the police on their child’s teacher after repeated misgendering made them suicidal."

Last sentence in that article:

"Reporting by the Daily Mail incorrectly states that Mermaids were the first to contact the police. However, they only reached out the police three months after the initial report by the parents to the police was not addressed."

daily mail. That says it all.

I guess, judging from my own experiences at school, the heads couldn't give a toss otherwise the cops wouldn't be involved.

[Noodle1982]

Scottish Wyldcat said:

Noodle1982 said:

Gooseberry said:

Spanna said:

And if someone continues to misgender, what’s the recourse against them?

Call the police?

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/02/24/a-charity-ca...

"We had to get the police involved because a young student was being regularly misgendered by his tutor. The tutor dismissed it until he was informed that it counted as a hate crime.”

Mermaids were the charity involved. That says it all.

First sentence in that article:

"Parents were forced to call the police on their child’s teacher after repeated misgendering made them suicidal."

Last sentence in that article:

"Reporting by the Daily Mail incorrectly states that Mermaids were the first to contact the police. However, they only reached out the police three months after the initial report by the parents to the police was not addressed."

daily mail. That says it all.

I guess, judging from my own experiences at school, the heads couldn't give a toss otherwise the cops wouldn't be involved.

Like I said, mermaids were involved.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Well, regardless, the point being that the recourse for persistent wilful transphobia is the same as for homophobia and racism.

One would hope that establishments, especially universities, would have procedures in place such that the police would not have to be involved.

[Noodle1982]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Well, regardless, the point being that the recourse for persistent wilful transphobia is the same as for homophobia and racism.

One would hope that establishments, especially universities, would have procedures in place such that the police would not have to be involved.

I completely agree.

Language, unless direct threats, should not be a police matter.

[Fermit and Sexy Sarah]

Noodle1982 said:

George Smiley said:

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:

Nicole Gibson mentioned a page back is a good shout. I mean come on, this strolls up to you in a bar, and starts talking to you seductively, you wouldn't count your lucky stars?

Yes, but I’d hope she’d tell me before the finger blasting

Just watched an interview involving her and while she does indeed look female as soon as she starts to talk it's obvious all is not what it seems.

Nope, I disagree. Whilst her voice isn't as delicate as some females it wouldn't suddenly make me think 'man' if I was speaking with her. Anyone would think she opened her mouth and sounded like Brian Blessed the way you suggest!

Skip to 30 seconds to pass the annoying intro -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiDoTHn1BMg

[Scottish Wyldcat]

Noodle1982 said:

Scottish Wyldcat said:

Noodle1982 said:

Gooseberry said:

Spanna said:

And if someone continues to misgender, what’s the recourse against them?

Call the police?

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/02/24/a-charity-ca...

"We had to get the police involved because a young student was being regularly misgendered by his tutor. The tutor dismissed it until he was informed that it counted as a hate crime.”

Mermaids were the charity involved. That says it all.

First sentence in that article:

"Parents were forced to call the police on their child’s teacher after repeated misgendering made them suicidal."

Last sentence in that article:

"Reporting by the Daily Mail incorrectly states that Mermaids were the first to contact the police. However, they only reached out the police three months after the initial report by the parents to the police was not addressed."

daily mail. That says it all.

I guess, judging from my own experiences at school, the heads couldn't give a toss otherwise the cops wouldn't be involved.

Like I said, mermaids were involved.

Their job is to protect and provide guidance to transgender kids. Not much different from the deaf childrens charity that helped me.

The fact that a charity got involved tells me it's a hell of a lot more serious than the media are letting on.

[br d]

Was behind a trans woman in the self-service queue at the supermarket today, tall, slim, cracking bod really. Her voice was very deep but what I found completely shocking was the topic of conversation. She was speaking about how she used to live in a different area but had decided to move to this one as it was nice.

I mean for god sake! Is this the type of filth we have be subjected to?
It's a good job this supermarket didn't have toilets or I would have been forced to insist she didn't use one or other of them, or something.

Anyway, the world didn't end. I will admit that this is a rare occurrence but largely down to the understanding I have gained on this thread I didn't gawp stupidly or point or anything.

[Noodle1982]

Scottish Wyldcat said:

Not much different from the deaf childrens charity that helped me.

Have you, or any other deaf person made a police complaint against someone that claimed you were not deaf?

[Clockwork Cupcake]

br d said:

Was behind a trans woman in the self-service queue at the supermarket today, tall, slim, cracking bod really. Her voice was very deep but what I found completely shocking was the topic of conversation. She was speaking about how she used to live in a different area but had decided to move to this one as it was nice.

I mean for god sake! Is this the type of filth we have be subjected to?
It's a good job this supermarket didn't have toilets or I would have been forced to insist she didn't use one or other of them, or something.

Anyway, the world didn't end. I will admit that this is a rare occurrence but largely down to the understanding I have gained on this thread I didn't gawp stupidly or point or anything.

Edit: Presumably you also didn't loudly exclaim "Oi, it's a bleedin' bloke! Orright, bky?"

(This, unfortunately, did happen to me once)

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Monday 29th April 18:13

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Noodle1982 said:

Have you, or any other deaf person made a police complaint against someone that claimed you were not deaf?

Pardon?

[Scottish Wyldcat]

Noodle1982 said:

Scottish Wyldcat said:

Not much different from the deaf childrens charity that helped me.

Have you, or any other deaf person made a police complaint against someone that claimed you were not deaf?

I've no idea if they got the police involved but it all started with a teacher making uncomfortable "jokes" about my hearing in front of class. This triggered the bullies into picking on me. I largely ignored them until they started to get violent when no-one was looking. Of course, when I stood up they would play victim causing me all sorts of grief.

All it takes is a joke about a perceived weakness.

Edit: I should mention this was in the mid 1980s. Deaf kids are largely included these days I think.

Edited by Scottish Wyldcat on Monday 29th April 18:33

[Noodle1982]

Scottish Wyldcat said:

Noodle1982 said:

Scottish Wyldcat said:

Not much different from the deaf childrens charity that helped me.

Have you, or any other deaf person made a police complaint against someone that claimed you were not deaf?

I've no idea if they got the police involved but it all started with a teacher making uncomfortable "jokes" about my hearing in front of class. This triggered the bullies into picking on me. I largely ignored them until they started to get violent when no-one was looking. Of course, when I stood up they would play victim causing me all sorts of grief.

All it takes is a joke about a perceived weakness.

While a joke about a weakness is not nice it is still not a police matter.





....if it was CC would be locked up.

[br d]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Edit: Presumably you also didn't loudly exclaim "Oi, it's a bleedin' bloke! Orright, bky?"

(This, unfortunately, did happen to me once)

I think there will probably always be people like that in the world, it's not nice but presumably comes with the territory for anybody doing anything outside of the accepted mainstream. Rise above it or smash them in the face with a drive shaft from an 11 plate transit (I have one of you ever need it)

Here's a heartwarming story that I've remembered from my youth. I grew up on a pretty shabby council estate, there was a bloke on the estate who was a hairdresser and a completely, screamingly camp homosexual. I mean the full mannerisms, walk and voice, the whole nine yards. I'm in my mid 50's now so we're talking probably about 48 years ago and this was extremely rare, maybe not in swinging London but definitely in a grotty council estate. This was a time when anybody even remotely gay would suffer a constant barrage of "Oi poofter" type comments from the betting shop dads on the estate. I knew no different at that age and me and my mates would laugh along when he got abuse.

He always took it really well, just gave them a withering look or flicked his hair (he had perfect hair).

One day, right outside my house three lads gave him some usual mouth and one of them grabbed him and tore his shirt. Something snapped and he beat the living st out of two of them (third ran away), and I mean proper punching and moving, he just took them apart very quickly, it was completely unexpected and the lads didn't know what hit them.

I won't pretend it was like a Disney film and he suddenly became the most popular person on the estate but certainly there was a huge downturn in people giving him lip, he never made a big deal of it just carried on the same as ever.

We found out later that he had 2 older brothers who both boxed and he had spent a lot of his childhood training with them before coming out. Unfortunately I think the 2 brothers rejected him after this (it was a very different time) and he'd moved away to start anew.

By the time I was 10 or so and starting to understand stuff more he had moved on and I never saw him again but I still have vivid memories of the fight, I can see the bloke bent over holding his face while the blood pissed through his fingers.

I don't suppose the poor bd took any pleasure in doing it but at least he changed a few perceptions that day.

[George Smiley]

https://youtu.be/cO-QSAn--PI

[Brads67]

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:

Nope, I disagree. Whilst her voice isn't as delicate as some females it wouldn't suddenly make me think 'man' if I was speaking with her. Anyone would think she opened her mouth and sounded like Brian Blessed the way you suggest!

Skip to 30 seconds to pass the annoying intro -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiDoTHn1BMg

Just watched that and she struck me as pretty manly.

Good looking but obvious.

Not judging, just saying.

[HTP99]

Brads67 said:

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:

Nope, I disagree. Whilst her voice isn't as delicate as some females it wouldn't suddenly make me think 'man' if I was speaking with her. Anyone would think she opened her mouth and sounded like Brian Blessed the way you suggest!

Skip to 30 seconds to pass the annoying intro -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiDoTHn1BMg

Just watched that and she struck me as pretty manly.

Good looking but obvious.

Not judging, just saying.

Have to agree and also looks a fair bit different to her photo a few posts back.

[Derek Smith]

The English language is part of the problem, although many other problematical languages are available. It generates a need to differentiate between the sexes. Some people will be confused as to what a person wishes to be called and this can generate resentment.

One way to cope with this is to have an acceptable non-gender specific singular personal pronoun. It is too crude. I felt that Ms missed an opportunity as it was gender specific, and was meant to be. A word not linked directly to he or she would be best; something fairly independent. De perhaps?

If we want to present a gender neutral appreciation of all people, then starting at the basics might help.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Derek Smith said:

I felt that Ms missed an opportunity as it was gender specific, and was meant to be.

It paved the way though. I remember how much it was reviled and scoffed at. And the idea that only ball-breakers and feminists would use Ms as opposed to Mrs or Miss. Yet here we are 30-odd years and it is perfectly normal.
But it was extremely alien when it first came out.

The gender-neutral form of Ms is Mx (or M*) where the x or asterisk denote "anything". As a computer programmer the * makes more sense to me, but I realise that the x is more readable to most.

I think that going straight to Mx would have been a step too far and it would never have caught on. We needed Ms as a stepping stone.

[Scottish Wyldcat]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Pardon?

Eh? Cannae hear ye

Noodle1982 said:

While a joke about a weakness is not nice it is still not a police matter.

If a joke escalates beyond a joke to the point the joke victim is under threat then, a police matter, it should be.

Noodle1982 said:

....if it was CC would be locked up.

For indulging in some light hearted banter? Then my family and friends should be locked up too.