The EU v UK vaccine tussle

[Leithen]

paulrockliffe said:

Leithen said:

We've lucked in and done something right - "It's not our problem, but we'll happily consider helping if we can"

Is it luck when one party gets on with things and spends whatever was necessary to get a vaccine developed and supplied and the other spends a sixth of that amount, fannies about chiselling the price for months, and then gets into a spat over a vaccine they haven't approved that they say doesn't work anyway?

Seems like the more effort you put in, the luckier you get don't you think.

I might agree if UK Gov had proven to be paragon of excellence throughout this whole crisis. Credit where credit is due for having the foresight to sign and commit to vaccine contracts, but I'd probably direct that to those who aren't the politicians involved.

[768]

amusingduck said:

Looks like the EU can't even manage to redact a document properly



(not my pic)

A somewhat predictable "accident". I wonder how much more AstraZeneca will take of this before bailing out.

[Durzel]

This issue is pretty much a slam dunk for fans of Brexit. It's hard not to see this as a massive win, even if by luck, for the UK. At best the EU comes off looking like bullies, and frankly they look pretty incompetent if they've only been managed to sign contracts 3 months later than the UK, and what they have signed actually doesn't work in their favour either.

Even The Guardian are running with a EU-negative headline accompanying a pretty "mean" looking photo of the Commission president.

[paulrockliffe]

NRS said:

paulrockliffe said:

They will of course have fun with that given they're suppling Pfizer to the US and Israel from Germany. Going to be tricky to maintain some sort of moral position while applying the rules in a discriminatory way.

Would that be against WTO rules?

Is that that international law thing I've heard a lot about recently?

More seriously, there may be WTO exemptions for stuff like medicines or extreme circumstances that could be asked to do some very heavy lifting?

[andymadmak]

don'tbesilly said:

andymadmak said:

don'tbesilly said:

Pretty much this.

The EU is planning on introducing export licenses for vaccines today.

The EU will just say their right, everyone else is wrong, and if AZ doesn't play ball, they'll enforce their export licence on Pfizer, forcing Pfizer to breach their contract with the UK.

Yes. If I was Boris Johnson right now I'd be quietly checking to see what the impact will be of the Pfizer deliveries to UK being halted. If, in cooperation with AZ and the other UK based providers, I could see a way to minimise the impact of the EU restrictions on Pfizer such that we could still hit our targets then I would be announcing publicly TODAY that as a goodwill gesture, and because we are so much better prepared, the UK is willing to forego it's deliveries from Pfizer at this point so that vulnerable EU citizens could be vaccinated. I'd then sit back, look to the south east and wait for the mushroom cloud to appear over Brussels....

That's forgetting the UK citizens who have had the first Pfizer jab and expecting the second one any time soon.

It also seriously impacts those who are expecting the jab in the next two weeks, and having to make a choice in which one to accept, given that the supply of one of the vaccines is now seriously in doubt.

I completely understand your point. But my point is that if the EU is going to stop the Pfizer deliveries to UK anyway then we might as well be seen to be generous and show the EU up for what they are. Either way, we ain't going to be getting all our properly ordered Pfizer vaccine any time soon if those export monitoring (restrictions) come into power later today.
Is there a clear time limit by which the second dose MUST be given?

[paulrockliffe]

Durzel said:

This issue is pretty much a slam dunk for fans of Brexit. It's hard not to see this as a massive win, even if by luck, for the UK. At best the EU comes off looking like bullies, and frankly they look pretty incompetent if they've only been managed to sign contracts 3 months later than the UK, and what they have signed actually doesn't work in their favour either.

Even The Guardian are running with a EU-negative headline accompanying a pretty "mean" looking photo of the Commission president.

As I said earlier, it's a perfect argument for Brexit, our Government would never survive something like this, yet EU citizens have no power to stop the EU going mental. Their own politicians won't even step in as they know they won't get any flack over it. The consequences will all fall on EU citizens.

This is exactly what we said in 2016, and exactly what remainers still argue isn't the case.

[prand]

Durzel said:

This issue is pretty much a slam dunk for fans of Brexit. It's hard not to see this as a massive win, even if by luck, for the UK. At best the EU comes off looking like bullies, and frankly they look pretty incompetent if they've only been managed to sign contracts 3 months later than the UK, and what they have signed actually doesn't work in their favour either.

Even The Guardian are running with a EU-negative headline accompanying a pretty "mean" looking photo of the Commission president.

To be honest I don't care if it looks good for anyone, I've always just wanted the UK's response to this epidemic to be effective and quick, and to date it seems like the opportunities for doing so have been ignored by our government.

However by luck or judgement the vaccine supply and rollout seems to be a success, which is something to be happy about so far...

I'd really like to see more of a proportion of the population getting their second jabs, and some sort of plan about on how we can return to normal life when a critical mass of people have had their complete vaccinations. I've not seen much on this at all beyond being told that we still won't be able to relax back to things we used to do even after being vaccinated, and this makes me feel like once again, the govt don't have a plan and will be reacting, too late, to the situation.

[vikingaero]

andymadmak said:

don'tbesilly said:

Pretty much this.

The EU is planning on introducing export licenses for vaccines today.

The EU will just say their right, everyone else is wrong, and if AZ doesn't play ball, they'll enforce their export licence on Pfizer, forcing Pfizer to breach their contract with the UK.

Yes. If I was Boris Johnson right now I'd be quietly checking to see what the impact will be of the Pfizer deliveries to UK being halted. If, in cooperation with AZ and the other UK based providers, I could see a way to minimise the impact of the EU restrictions on Pfizer such that we could still hit our targets then I would be announcing publicly TODAY that as a goodwill gesture, and because we are so much better prepared, the UK is willing to forego it's deliveries from Pfizer at this point so that vulnerable EU citizens could be vaccinated. I'd then sit back, look to the south east and wait for the mushroom cloud to appear over Brussels....

If I were Boris I would insist all spare vaccines travel only by plain trucks to Dover. They queue like other freight - no queue jumping. If the French and EU don't want to process them in a timely fashion then hey...

I would also insist that the deliveries are conditional that no MEP or EU Leader is allowed any UK or EU vaccine until 70% of the European population is vaccinated...

[768]

paulrockliffe said:

This is exactly what we said in 2016, and exactly what remainers still argue isn't the case.

To be fair a think a fair few get it a bit more now. And just in case they don't the EU seem to hammer the point every few hours at the moment.

[DeejRC]

Looking at the published details of the contract having had to deal with the EC and EU in numerous contracts, two thoughts come to mind:

1. Its loaded heavily in AZ's way
2. AZ have and can afford far better lawyers than the EC

I cant say Im shocked at all that AZ gave the EU permission to publish it.

[paulrockliffe]

768 said:

paulrockliffe said:

This is exactly what we said in 2016, and exactly what remainers still argue isn't the case.

To be fair a think a fair few get it a bit more now. And just in case they don't the EU seem to hammer the point every few hours at the moment.

Are the Lib Dems still calling for that confirmatory referendum now?

[don'tbesilly]

andymadmak said:

don'tbesilly said:

andymadmak said:

don'tbesilly said:

Pretty much this.

The EU is planning on introducing export licenses for vaccines today.

The EU will just say their right, everyone else is wrong, and if AZ doesn't play ball, they'll enforce their export licence on Pfizer, forcing Pfizer to breach their contract with the UK.

Yes. If I was Boris Johnson right now I'd be quietly checking to see what the impact will be of the Pfizer deliveries to UK being halted. If, in cooperation with AZ and the other UK based providers, I could see a way to minimise the impact of the EU restrictions on Pfizer such that we could still hit our targets then I would be announcing publicly TODAY that as a goodwill gesture, and because we are so much better prepared, the UK is willing to forego it's deliveries from Pfizer at this point so that vulnerable EU citizens could be vaccinated. I'd then sit back, look to the south east and wait for the mushroom cloud to appear over Brussels....

That's forgetting the UK citizens who have had the first Pfizer jab and expecting the second one any time soon.

It also seriously impacts those who are expecting the jab in the next two weeks, and having to make a choice in which one to accept, given that the supply of one of the vaccines is now seriously in doubt.

I completely understand your point. But my point is that if the EU is going to stop the Pfizer deliveries to UK anyway then we might as well be seen to be generous and show the EU up for what they are. Either way, we ain't going to be getting all our properly ordered Pfizer vaccine any time soon if those export monitoring (restrictions) come into power later today.
Is there a clear time limit by which the second dose MUST be given?

I did get your point Andy, and I don't disagree with it.

In terms of gaps between first/second jab, and according to a Professor on the JCVI there isn't a specific time gap according to the EMA (Pfizer vaccine)

Edited by don'tbesilly on Friday 29th January 13:06

[Nickgnome]

paulrockliffe said:

Durzel said:

This issue is pretty much a slam dunk for fans of Brexit. It's hard not to see this as a massive win, even if by luck, for the UK. At best the EU comes off looking like bullies, and frankly they look pretty incompetent if they've only been managed to sign contracts 3 months later than the UK, and what they have signed actually doesn't work in their favour either.

Even The Guardian are running with a EU-negative headline accompanying a pretty "mean" looking photo of the Commission president.

As I said earlier, it's a perfect argument for Brexit, our Government would never survive something like this, yet EU citizens have no power to stop the EU going mental. Their own politicians won't even step in as they know they won't get any flack over it. The consequences will all fall on EU citizens.

This is exactly what we said in 2016, and exactly what remainers still argue isn't the case.

Surely until we get through this completely we will not know the total impact.

UK have hardly been and exemplar in terms of Covid mortality. Perhaps that mortality count per1,000 should be compared at the end of all this.

Furthermore the UK has seen a significant economic impact and that should also be compared at an appropriate time.

[FiF]

andymadmak said:

don'tbesilly said:

andymadmak said:

don'tbesilly said:

Pretty much this.

The EU is planning on introducing export licenses for vaccines today.

The EU will just say their right, everyone else is wrong, and if AZ doesn't play ball, they'll enforce their export licence on Pfizer, forcing Pfizer to breach their contract with the UK.

Yes. If I was Boris Johnson right now I'd be quietly checking to see what the impact will be of the Pfizer deliveries to UK being halted. If, in cooperation with AZ and the other UK based providers, I could see a way to minimise the impact of the EU restrictions on Pfizer such that we could still hit our targets then I would be announcing publicly TODAY that as a goodwill gesture, and because we are so much better prepared, the UK is willing to forego it's deliveries from Pfizer at this point so that vulnerable EU citizens could be vaccinated. I'd then sit back, look to the south east and wait for the mushroom cloud to appear over Brussels....

That's forgetting the UK citizens who have had the first Pfizer jab and expecting the second one any time soon.

It also seriously impacts those who are expecting the jab in the next two weeks, and having to make a choice in which one to accept, given that the supply of one of the vaccines is now seriously in doubt.

I completely understand your point. But my point is that if the EU is going to stop the Pfizer deliveries to UK anyway then we might as well be seen to be generous and show the EU up for what they are. Either way, we ain't going to be getting all our properly ordered Pfizer vaccine any time soon if those export monitoring (restrictions) come into power later today.
Is there a clear time limit by which the second dose MUST be given?

As written earlier, rather than Bozzer to offer forego the Pfizer deliveries, I'd rather take the high ground and support the EU with part of the UK AZ production providing we a) have enough stock to give all the second doses and b) get enough supplies from AZ and Novamax going forward to maintain a reasonable programme going forward and offer a jab to all adults before end September.

My point is wouldn't proactively foregoing the Pfizer jabs bring the significant risk that there would be some citizens put into uncharted territory regarding anywhere from not getting the second jab against their will, getting it but not in the correct time frame, having a mixed vaccination, 1Pf + 1 AZ or whatever. Sharp suited lawyers would be rubbing their hands. If the EU stop exports that's force majeure surely and puts it in different legal responsibility. But IANAL, so just my 2p.

Unfortunately I can't see the avoidance of politicking and attempts to show other parties in a bad light. Though tbh I don't care about the EU being shown in a bad light, it's only deserved. I feel sorry for their citizens, the Commission etc, not so much.

[Craig W]

Can anyone give a tl;dr for this thread? I've read some of the news stories but can't quite get clear in my head what is being argued?

[maz8062]

andymadmak said:

don'tbesilly said:

Pretty much this.

The EU is planning on introducing export licenses for vaccines today.

The EU will just say their right, everyone else is wrong, and if AZ doesn't play ball, they'll enforce their export licence on Pfizer, forcing Pfizer to breach their contract with the UK.

Yes. If I was Boris Johnson right now I'd be quietly checking to see what the impact will be of the Pfizer deliveries to UK being halted. If, in cooperation with AZ and the other UK based providers, I could see a way to minimise the impact of the EU restrictions on Pfizer such that we could still hit our targets then I would be announcing publicly TODAY that as a goodwill gesture, and because we are so much better prepared, the UK is willing to forego it's deliveries from Pfizer at this point so that vulnerable EU citizens could be vaccinated. I'd then sit back, look to the south east and wait for the mushroom cloud to appear over Brussels....

Wrong advice IMO. If I were Boris I’d be looking at ways to diffuse this row, even going as far as offering a slice of UK production to make up the EU shortfall.

It is obvious that the EU are looking to paint the UK as the bad guys and justify vaccine export controls - which we must try to avoid at all costs, because once these controls are introduced it will cover a whole load of vaccines, not just COVID.

We’re a third country now, we need to be diplomatic with our dealings with the ROW.

[Durzel]

prand said:

Durzel said:

This issue is pretty much a slam dunk for fans of Brexit. It's hard not to see this as a massive win, even if by luck, for the UK. At best the EU comes off looking like bullies, and frankly they look pretty incompetent if they've only been managed to sign contracts 3 months later than the UK, and what they have signed actually doesn't work in their favour either.

Even The Guardian are running with a EU-negative headline accompanying a pretty "mean" looking photo of the Commission president.

To be honest I don't care if it looks good for anyone, I've always just wanted the UK's response to this epidemic to be effective and quick, and to date it seems like the opportunities for doing so have been ignored by our government.

However by luck or judgement the vaccine supply and rollout seems to be a success, which is something to be happy about so far...

I'd really like to see more of a proportion of the population getting their second jabs, and some sort of plan about on how we can return to normal life when a critical mass of people have had their complete vaccinations. I've not seen much on this at all beyond being told that we still won't be able to relax back to things we used to do even after being vaccinated, and this makes me feel like once again, the govt don't have a plan and will be reacting, too late, to the situation.

The UK Government's response throughout all of this has been pretty calamitous, but it's hard to argue against over 10% of adult citizens having been vaccinated now - compared to other countries (Israel and now the US notwithstanding), so in a very practical sense the UK's ability to sign contracts independantly of the EU, and the EU subsequently blowing off both its feet by signing their own contract 3 months later (3 months! in the middle of a pandemic where every day means lost lives and economic depression) that is also weighted against them in the event of a production shortfall (a pretty obvious risk) - makes them look hopelessly incompetent.

As an argument in favour of Brexit (which I was not, I should add) it is basically perfect. If we were in the EU now we'd be suffering the same fate as them, and would be unable to negotiate independantly, and would basically have to wait for the EU wheels to grind before we got our doses, while people literally died. I suspect when all is said and done EU citizens will not be particularly positive towards an apparatus that has failed so spectacularly at such a critical time.

[FiF]

Oh yes, another thing, may have been mentioned, EU also required by the contract to deliver their best reasonable efforts, plenty of evidence they have not, eg just look at the delays to even get the EMA to a meeting around Christmas / New Year. Eventually after protests they brought it a little forward but seemed a dilatory approach at the time, now seems criminal,

[paulrockliffe]

maz8062 said:

Wrong advice IMO. If I were Boris I’d be looking at ways to diffuse this row, even going as far as offering a slice of UK production to make up the EU shortfall.

It is obvious that the EU are looking to paint the UK as the bad guys and justify vaccine export controls - which we must try to avoid at all costs, because once these controls are introduced it will cover a whole load of vaccines, not just COVID.

We’re a third country now, we need to be diplomatic with our dealings with the ROW.

LOL.

It's been thrown to the court of public opinion now. Do you think the UK population will support a policy of appeasement towards the EU while it means our elderly dying?

The EU Justice Commissioner has accused us of wanting to start a vaccine war today. The Croatian PM has accused us of hijacking their vaccines.

Yet it's for us to appease the EU regardless of how unreasonable their demands are.

[loafer123]

Craig W said:

Can anyone give a tl;dr for this thread? I've read some of the news stories but can't quite get clear in my head what is being argued?

Eu cocked up ordering process...trying to make noise and bully everyone into submission in order to cover up said cockup.