Miami school shooting
Discussion
gavsdavs said:
frankenstein12 said:
Because we are realists. We recognise the American attitude to guns. We realise that Americans will not give up their guns. As such we also recognsie that there needs to be creative compromise solutions to the gun problems to actually move things forward.
Initially in the immediate aftermath of the shooting the NRA and gun owners seemed supportive when Trump said he was going to ban bump stocks and look at better gun control.
Now after the anti gunners and liberals have actively started campaigning against and targetting the NRA and the companies it works with and gun owners they have gone back to their previous position of refusing to compromise and are stating they are against banning bump stocks or better gun control and that instead more guns is better.
In simple terms initially before the anti gun lobby really got rolling there was a chance to make a change with the cooperation of gun owners and the NRA now that opportunity is gone.
On the plus side it does seem Trump has set his mind to banning bump stocks and to putting more control on guns regardless of the NRA's position and hopefully he will follow through.
As the phrase goes. Baby steps.
Whilst I appreciate your response and pragmatism, I personally feel the time for cotton wooling the gun owners is waning quickly. It's kind of been proven repeatedly that the pro gun stance fails and people die. The swelling of feeling from the American youth is great to see - they've lost their patience as they can see the establishment forming the circle of wagons as usually and the NRA is the middle of it.Initially in the immediate aftermath of the shooting the NRA and gun owners seemed supportive when Trump said he was going to ban bump stocks and look at better gun control.
Now after the anti gunners and liberals have actively started campaigning against and targetting the NRA and the companies it works with and gun owners they have gone back to their previous position of refusing to compromise and are stating they are against banning bump stocks or better gun control and that instead more guns is better.
In simple terms initially before the anti gun lobby really got rolling there was a chance to make a change with the cooperation of gun owners and the NRA now that opportunity is gone.
On the plus side it does seem Trump has set his mind to banning bump stocks and to putting more control on guns regardless of the NRA's position and hopefully he will follow through.
As the phrase goes. Baby steps.
I would love to see lots of companies breaking off ties with the NRA and turning them into societal outcasts - their modus operandi belongs in the past and should not be present in modern society. But I think there's another 10+ years of thougtless gun violence to come before guns start to leave US society.
Likewise if you watch twitter at all you will note the reaction from conservatives to the bashing of the NRA is that they are going out and joinging up to the NRA. I have seen tweets from people stating they dont even have a gun but they have bought an NRA membership solely to support the NRA who they feel are being unfairly targeted.
Hell even I considered buying a membership and I am not even American. I am all for bashing those who have done wrong but this modern social media bullying campaigning pisses me off to a huge degree. It is in its most simple form bullying.
They are attacking companies affiliated with the NRA to try make the NRA social outcasts and it is utterly reprehensible behaviour and counter productive for all involved.
All these idiots are doing is killing any change to gun law as the NRA are going nowhere as lots and lots of Americans on all sides of the spectrum dont blame the NRA and dont blame guns for these shootings.
Yes there are lots of kids wandering around screaming and shouting about gun control. There are also lots of kids in favour of gun ownership.
frankenstein12 said:
Nope i didnt miss it at all. By attacking the NRA you are also attacking non NRA gun owners whether openly or simply by implication. As such normal non NRA gun owners feel their right to bear arms is under threat and they take a defensive position.
Or to use an analogy.
If you are out with some friends and someone threatens a friend of yours, you by extension will feel angry and will come to your friends defence.
Not necessarily. If I say I think the NRA's views on the right to bear arms are stupid (specifically their god given right nonsense), then it's clear I'm attacking the NRA and not the average gun owner.Or to use an analogy.
If you are out with some friends and someone threatens a friend of yours, you by extension will feel angry and will come to your friends defence.
To extend your analogy. If my friend had been stirring up trouble and being an idiot, I'd be less inclined to step in. Especially if he wasn't actually a friend but just someone who claimed to know me.
jmorgan said:
Or think your mate is a bit of a throbber and let them sink on their own.
Nope. You say that now but most people in that scenario even if their mate has been an absolute throbber will come to his defence and berate him after themselves for being a throbber.In this case however the situation is worse as in effect their mate has been attacked for no reason other than he looks like someone the person had a beef with.
There is a great deal of misinformation being touted about gun ownership in the US and it is actually quite tightly controlled depending on where you buy guns from. If you buy from a gun shop there are background checks you have to pass.
You cannot just walk into a shop selling guns pick one up hand over your money and walk out again.
The only time you can buy a gun without a background check is privately and even there some states require a gun shop intermediary to carry out a background check.
rscott said:
frankenstein12 said:
Nope i didnt miss it at all. By attacking the NRA you are also attacking non NRA gun owners whether openly or simply by implication. As such normal non NRA gun owners feel their right to bear arms is under threat and they take a defensive position.
Or to use an analogy.
If you are out with some friends and someone threatens a friend of yours, you by extension will feel angry and will come to your friends defence.
Not necessarily. If I say I think the NRA's views on the right to bear arms are stupid (specifically their god given right nonsense), then it's clear I'm attacking the NRA and not the average gun owner.Or to use an analogy.
If you are out with some friends and someone threatens a friend of yours, you by extension will feel angry and will come to your friends defence.
To extend your analogy. If my friend had been stirring up trouble and being an idiot, I'd be less inclined to step in. Especially if he wasn't actually a friend but just someone who claimed to know me.
frankenstein12 said:
jmorgan said:
Or think your mate is a bit of a throbber and let them sink on their own.
Nope. You say that now but most people in that scenario even if their mate has been an absolute throbber will come to his defence and berate him after themselves for being a throbber.In this case however the situation is worse as in effect their mate has been attacked for no reason other than he looks like someone the person had a beef with.
There is a great deal of misinformation being touted about gun ownership in the US and it is actually quite tightly controlled depending on where you buy guns from. If you buy from a gun shop there are background checks you have to pass.
You cannot just walk into a shop selling guns pick one up hand over your money and walk out again.
The only time you can buy a gun without a background check is privately and even there some states require a gun shop intermediary to carry out a background check.
frankenstein12 said:
Generally speaking after every gun atrocity in the states gun sales go up not down. I seem to recall an article where the NRA stated that after each atrocity their membership numbers also go up not down.
Likewise if you watch twitter at all you will note the reaction from conservatives to the bashing of the NRA is that they are going out and joinging up to the NRA. I have seen tweets from people stating they dont even have a gun but they have bought an NRA membership solely to support the NRA who they feel are being unfairly targeted.
Hell even I considered buying a membership and I am not even American. I am all for bashing those who have done wrong but this modern social media bullying campaigning pisses me off to a huge degree. It is in its most simple form bullying.
They are attacking companies affiliated with the NRA to try make the NRA social outcasts and it is utterly reprehensible behaviour and counter productive for all involved.
All these idiots are doing is killing any change to gun law as the NRA are going nowhere as lots and lots of Americans on all sides of the spectrum dont blame the NRA and dont blame guns for these shootings.
Yes there are lots of kids wandering around screaming and shouting about gun control. There are also lots of kids in favour of gun ownership.
And yet, some children, that my son taught last summer are now dead.Likewise if you watch twitter at all you will note the reaction from conservatives to the bashing of the NRA is that they are going out and joinging up to the NRA. I have seen tweets from people stating they dont even have a gun but they have bought an NRA membership solely to support the NRA who they feel are being unfairly targeted.
Hell even I considered buying a membership and I am not even American. I am all for bashing those who have done wrong but this modern social media bullying campaigning pisses me off to a huge degree. It is in its most simple form bullying.
They are attacking companies affiliated with the NRA to try make the NRA social outcasts and it is utterly reprehensible behaviour and counter productive for all involved.
All these idiots are doing is killing any change to gun law as the NRA are going nowhere as lots and lots of Americans on all sides of the spectrum dont blame the NRA and dont blame guns for these shootings.
Yes there are lots of kids wandering around screaming and shouting about gun control. There are also lots of kids in favour of gun ownership.
Wake up you stupid f
king yanks !frankenstein12 said:
Generally speaking after every gun atrocity in the states gun sales go up not down. I seem to recall an article where the NRA stated that after each atrocity their membership numbers also go up not down.
Likewise if you watch twitter at all you will note the reaction from conservatives to the bashing of the NRA is that they are going out and joinging up to the NRA. I have seen tweets from people stating they dont even have a gun but they have bought an NRA membership solely to support the NRA who they feel are being unfairly targeted.
Surprise surprise, NRA crying victim. That is extremely sad, and yes, I have seen that approachLikewise if you watch twitter at all you will note the reaction from conservatives to the bashing of the NRA is that they are going out and joinging up to the NRA. I have seen tweets from people stating they dont even have a gun but they have bought an NRA membership solely to support the NRA who they feel are being unfairly targeted.
frankenstein12 said:
Hell even I considered buying a membership and I am not even American. I am all for bashing those who have done wrong but this modern social media bullying campaigning pisses me off to a huge degree. It is in its most simple form bullying.
No, it's not bullying, it's simply calling the NRA out for what they are. The NRA operate to put weapons which serve no other function into the hands of the general public. What beneficial, social function do they perform ? You don't use AR-15s for target shooting or home defence. frankenstein12 said:
They are attacking companies affiliated with the NRA to try make the NRA social outcasts and it is utterly reprehensible behaviour and counter productive for all involved.
The NRA promote the use of weapons into society. American society has proven repeatedly that it is not improved by the presence of guns. As soon as any form of gun control gets mentioned, you get NRA shillls claiming their 2nd ammendment rights are being violated (somewhat missing the point).This is a form of misdirection. The 2nd ammendment has been co-opted by the NRA for it's commercial goals. I don't see any 'well organised militia' in the US, just people who like (i.e. are addicted to) guns.frankenstein12 said:
All these idiots are doing is killing any change to gun law as the NRA are going nowhere as lots and lots of Americans on all sides of the spectrum dont blame the NRA and dont blame guns for these shootings.
Yes there are lots of kids wandering around screaming and shouting about gun control. There are also lots of kids in favour of gun ownership.
The NRA are on borrowed time now. The youth will have them out. If you cling to the past, you'll quickly be seen as such and deemed an anti-social individual. Can you show me lots of kids in favour of gun ownership ? Outside of redneck states and NRA families, I very much doubt that's the case. They are no longer interested.Yes there are lots of kids wandering around screaming and shouting about gun control. There are also lots of kids in favour of gun ownership.
Vipers said:
frankenstein12 said:
jmorgan said:
Or think your mate is a bit of a throbber and let them sink on their own.
Nope. You say that now but most people in that scenario even if their mate has been an absolute throbber will come to his defence and berate him after themselves for being a throbber.In this case however the situation is worse as in effect their mate has been attacked for no reason other than he looks like someone the person had a beef with.
There is a great deal of misinformation being touted about gun ownership in the US and it is actually quite tightly controlled depending on where you buy guns from. If you buy from a gun shop there are background checks you have to pass.
You cannot just walk into a shop selling guns pick one up hand over your money and walk out again.
The only time you can buy a gun without a background check is privately and even there some states require a gun shop intermediary to carry out a background check.
Had the system in place worked he would not have been permitted to buy the guns as shown by a member of the press who tried to buy an AR15 to prove how "easy" it is and was declined after the shop ran a criminal records check which showed he had a history for battery and was therefore not permitted to buy a gun.
Unfortunately in this case as in so many of them all the signs were there. All the warnigns were given to all the correct law enforcement divisions etc which should have meant when he tried to buy guns the system would have said no but all of them were missed/ignored and a bunch of poor kids paid the price.
gavsdavs said:
frankenstein12 said:
Generally speaking after every gun atrocity in the states gun sales go up not down. I seem to recall an article where the NRA stated that after each atrocity their membership numbers also go up not down.
Likewise if you watch twitter at all you will note the reaction from conservatives to the bashing of the NRA is that they are going out and joinging up to the NRA. I have seen tweets from people stating they dont even have a gun but they have bought an NRA membership solely to support the NRA who they feel are being unfairly targeted.
Surprise surprise, NRA crying victim. That is extremely sad, and yes, I have seen that approachLikewise if you watch twitter at all you will note the reaction from conservatives to the bashing of the NRA is that they are going out and joinging up to the NRA. I have seen tweets from people stating they dont even have a gun but they have bought an NRA membership solely to support the NRA who they feel are being unfairly targeted.
frankenstein12 said:
Hell even I considered buying a membership and I am not even American. I am all for bashing those who have done wrong but this modern social media bullying campaigning pisses me off to a huge degree. It is in its most simple form bullying.
No, it's not bullying, it's simply calling the NRA out for what they are. The NRA operate to put weapons which serve no other function into the hands of the general public. What beneficial, social function do they perform ? You don't use AR-15s for target shooting or home defence. Actually it is. It is the VERY definition of bullying. Its no different to a kid in school disliking some other kid who wears glasses and getting the rest of his clique to beat up or threaten to beat up the glasses wearing kids friends unless they stop hanging out with him.
frankenstein12 said:
They are attacking companies affiliated with the NRA to try make the NRA social outcasts and it is utterly reprehensible behaviour and counter productive for all involved.
The NRA promote the use of weapons into society. American society has proven repeatedly that it is not improved by the presence of guns. As soon as any form of gun control gets mentioned, you get NRA shillls claiming their 2nd ammendment rights are being violated (somewhat missing the point).This is a form of misdirection. The 2nd ammendment has been co-opted by the NRA for it's commercial goals. I don't see any 'well organised militia' in the US, just people who like (i.e. are addicted to) guns.Tough. Whether people like what the NRA does or not does not justify bullying behaviour.
frankenstein12 said:
All these idiots are doing is killing any change to gun law as the NRA are going nowhere as lots and lots of Americans on all sides of the spectrum dont blame the NRA and dont blame guns for these shootings.
Yes there are lots of kids wandering around screaming and shouting about gun control. There are also lots of kids in favour of gun ownership.
The NRA are on borrowed time now. The youth will have them out. If you cling to the past, you'll quickly be seen as such and deemed an anti-social individual. Can you show me lots of kids in favour of gun ownership ? Outside of redneck states and NRA families, I very much doubt that's the case. They are no longer interested.Yes there are lots of kids wandering around screaming and shouting about gun control. There are also lots of kids in favour of gun ownership.
Maybe so. Some evidence seems to imply their subscription numbers are on a plateau or were until this latest round of attacks where they will no doubt spike upwards again.
gavsdavs said:
No, it's not bullying, it's simply calling the NRA out for what they are. The NRA operate to put weapons which serve no other function into the hands of the general public. What beneficial, social function do they perform ? You don't use AR-15s for target shooting or home defence.
AR-15s are just semi-automatic rifles. You can get them in Canada, you can get them in France, you can get them pretty much anywhere except the UK. They are used for target shooting. There is even a straight-pull version in the UK.... which is used for target shooting, even here in the UK. They are used for target shooting in the US. The NRA is actually middle-of-the-road as far as gun lobby groups go. If you want to see extreme, have a look at the GOA - Gun Owners of America.
As I noted before, the NRA doesn't have _that_ many members. They are successful as they are organised and the do represent the views of a lot of Americans.
frankenstein12 said:
jmorgan said:
Or think your mate is a bit of a throbber and let them sink on their own.
Nope. You say that now but most people in that scenario even if their mate has been an absolute throbber will come to his defence and berate him after themselves for being a throbber.In this case however the situation is worse as in effect their mate has been attacked for no reason other than he looks like someone the person had a beef with.
There is a great deal of misinformation being touted about gun ownership in the US and it is actually quite tightly controlled depending on where you buy guns from. If you buy from a gun shop there are background checks you have to pass.
You cannot just walk into a shop selling guns pick one up hand over your money and walk out again.
The only time you can buy a gun without a background check is privately and even there some states require a gun shop intermediary to carry out a background check.
33 states don't require private sellers to carry out any form of ID or background check - so nearly 2/3 of all states allow private sales without any realistic checks.
The NRA are correct on their core point -- US states with higher gun ownership rates generally have lower gun death rates. More guns = less death. It is counterintuitive, but true (inside the US). Until people start to grasp that point, and find a strong counterargument (they don't care about other countries), the NRA will just stick to their, err, guns. You're just gonna keep going round in circles.
As for arming teachers -- that may actually have a deterrent effect on mass-shooters. If pupils or ex-pupils see their teachers are armed, some will "think twice" before going on a rampage. Of course, the number of accidental deaths from extra guns in schools will probably far outweigh the number of deterred mass-shootings. But the Americans won't care, as long as the mass-shooting incidents come down. The means nearly always justify the ends, for America.
As for arming teachers -- that may actually have a deterrent effect on mass-shooters. If pupils or ex-pupils see their teachers are armed, some will "think twice" before going on a rampage. Of course, the number of accidental deaths from extra guns in schools will probably far outweigh the number of deterred mass-shootings. But the Americans won't care, as long as the mass-shooting incidents come down. The means nearly always justify the ends, for America.
Yipper said:
The NRA are correct on their core point -- US states with higher gun ownership rates generally have lower gun death rates. More guns = less death. It is counterintuitive, but true (inside the US). Until people start to grasp that point, and find a strong counterargument (they don't care about other countries), the NRA will just stick to their, err, guns. You're just gonna keep going round in circles.
As for arming teachers -- that may actually have a deterrent effect on mass-shooters. If pupils or ex-pupils see their teachers are armed, some will "think twice" before going on a rampage. Of course, the number of accidental deaths from extra guns in schools will probably far outweigh the number of deterred mass-shootings. But the Americans won't care, as long as the mass-shooting incidents come down. The means nearly always justify the ends, for America.
Yipper, you've been asked for evidence for the claim that higher gun ownership correlates with lower gun death rates, but haven't supplied any. In fact, others have posted research to the contrary.As for arming teachers -- that may actually have a deterrent effect on mass-shooters. If pupils or ex-pupils see their teachers are armed, some will "think twice" before going on a rampage. Of course, the number of accidental deaths from extra guns in schools will probably far outweigh the number of deterred mass-shootings. But the Americans won't care, as long as the mass-shooting incidents come down. The means nearly always justify the ends, for America.
For example,
Yipper said:
The NRA are correct on their core point -- US states with higher gun ownership rates generally have lower gun death rates. More guns = less death. It is counterintuitive, but true (inside the US). Until people start to grasp that point, and find a strong counterargument (they don't care about other countries), the NRA will just stick to their, err, guns. You're just gonna keep going round in circles.
As for arming teachers -- that may actually have a deterrent effect on mass-shooters. If pupils or ex-pupils see their teachers are armed, some will "think twice" before going on a rampage. Of course, the number of accidental deaths from extra guns in schools will probably far outweigh the number of deterred mass-shootings. But the Americans won't care, as long as the mass-shooting incidents come down. The means nearly always justify the ends, for America.
Yipper - serious question - why do you post this rubbish? You were called out on it several pages back but here you are again with the same crap. As for arming teachers -- that may actually have a deterrent effect on mass-shooters. If pupils or ex-pupils see their teachers are armed, some will "think twice" before going on a rampage. Of course, the number of accidental deaths from extra guns in schools will probably far outweigh the number of deterred mass-shootings. But the Americans won't care, as long as the mass-shooting incidents come down. The means nearly always justify the ends, for America.
Yipper said:
As for arming teachers -- that may actually have a deterrent effect on mass-shooters. If pupils or ex-pupils see their teachers are armed, some will "think twice" before going on a rampage.
They'll "think twice" about needing to go and buy a gun for their rampage when somebody has helpfully brought one in to the classroom for them.rscott said:
Yipper said:
The NRA are correct on their core point -- US states with higher gun ownership rates generally have lower gun death rates. More guns = less death. It is counterintuitive, but true (inside the US). Until people start to grasp that point, and find a strong counterargument (they don't care about other countries), the NRA will just stick to their, err, guns. You're just gonna keep going round in circles.
As for arming teachers -- that may actually have a deterrent effect on mass-shooters. If pupils or ex-pupils see their teachers are armed, some will "think twice" before going on a rampage. Of course, the number of accidental deaths from extra guns in schools will probably far outweigh the number of deterred mass-shootings. But the Americans won't care, as long as the mass-shooting incidents come down. The means nearly always justify the ends, for America.
Yipper, you've been asked for evidence for the claim that higher gun ownership correlates with lower gun death rates, but haven't supplied any. In fact, others have posted research to the contrary.As for arming teachers -- that may actually have a deterrent effect on mass-shooters. If pupils or ex-pupils see their teachers are armed, some will "think twice" before going on a rampage. Of course, the number of accidental deaths from extra guns in schools will probably far outweigh the number of deterred mass-shootings. But the Americans won't care, as long as the mass-shooting incidents come down. The means nearly always justify the ends, for America.
For example,
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