Miami school shooting

[Byker28i]

p1stonhead said:

rscott said:

p1stonhead said:

frankenstein12 said:

p1stonhead said:

frankenstein12 said:

Loskey said:

Bullet proof back packs

http://wesh.com/article/bulletproof-backpacks-put-...

I think I read that some of the kids at the school who were members of an NRA program at the school had those and used them to protect classmates. Can't really remember correct details.

1. Sounds like an advert for the NRA/Captain America Shield type stuff and is a fairly remarkable tale if true....
2. Cant find source anywhere despite item 1.

hmm....

Hence the words " I think I read " which tends to show uncertainty of fact.. :-)

'I made it up'

Gotcha

I'd have to agree - Google doesn't return anything to back up that claim..

Yep. I searched because it would have been an absolutely incredible story and would have also been EVERYWHERE if it was even remotely true.

There was a story about one of the cadet force using the kevlar matting
http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/florida-shooting-st...

[Byker28i]

The Florida School guard has made a statement. As I thought, in the confusion he didn't know where the shots were coming from

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...on-defends-r...

[mikal83]

Byker28i said:

The Florida School guard has made a statement. As I thought, in the confusion he didn't know where the shots were coming from

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...on-defends-r...

I mean how could he have possibly known except for the kids running OUT of the school screaming their heads off?

[Byker28i]

mikal83 said:

Byker28i said:

The Florida School guard has made a statement. As I thought, in the confusion he didn't know where the shots were coming from

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...on-defends-r...

I mean how could he have possibly known except for the kids running OUT of the school screaming their heads off?

We already know the police were being given conflicting information from the CCTV as the operator was watching a delayed feed. There were reports from students phone calls from all over the campus, sounds echoing off buildings. I'd expect he was in communication with a control room and was being fed all these reports, leading to the confusion.

[p1stonhead]

Byker28i said:

mikal83 said:

Byker28i said:

The Florida School guard has made a statement. As I thought, in the confusion he didn't know where the shots were coming from

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...on-defends-r...

I mean how could he have possibly known except for the kids running OUT of the school screaming their heads off?

We already know the police were being given conflicting information from the CCTV as the operator was watching a delayed feed. There were reports from students phone calls from all over the campus, sounds echoing off buildings. I'd expect he was in communication with a control room and was being fed all these reports, leading to the confusion.

WTF kind of system is that?!

Sounds like some bullst excuse to me.

[Byker28i]

p1stonhead said:

Byker28i said:

mikal83 said:

Byker28i said:

The Florida School guard has made a statement. As I thought, in the confusion he didn't know where the shots were coming from

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...on-defends-r...

I mean how could he have possibly known except for the kids running OUT of the school screaming their heads off?

We already know the police were being given conflicting information from the CCTV as the operator was watching a delayed feed. There were reports from students phone calls from all over the campus, sounds echoing off buildings. I'd expect he was in communication with a control room and was being fed all these reports, leading to the confusion.

WTF kind of system is that?!

Sounds like some bullst excuse to me.

20 minute delayed feed being relayed by the operator who didn't realise
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland...

[p1stonhead]

Byker28i said:

p1stonhead said:

Byker28i said:

mikal83 said:

Byker28i said:

The Florida School guard has made a statement. As I thought, in the confusion he didn't know where the shots were coming from

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...on-defends-r...

I mean how could he have possibly known except for the kids running OUT of the school screaming their heads off?

We already know the police were being given conflicting information from the CCTV as the operator was watching a delayed feed. There were reports from students phone calls from all over the campus, sounds echoing off buildings. I'd expect he was in communication with a control room and was being fed all these reports, leading to the confusion.

WTF kind of system is that?!

Sounds like some bullst excuse to me.

20 minute delayed feed being relayed by the operator who didn't realise
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland...

Bloody hell talk about an inept CCTV operator!

A delayed feed CCTV is possibly the most useless system in existence

[Byker28i]

Cruz was in the building 7 minutes according to reports. By the time the nearing retirement guard had got to the building, was receiving conflicting information, I suspect he was getting reports of shooting everywhere. Until we know what he was being told, I suspect he made the wrong decision based on all the conflicting reports.

The Sun Sentinel also reports that three other deputies waited outside, which makes me think they were getting told the shooter was outside not in buildings.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland...

[Byker28i]

Theyve a timeline...
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland...

[mko9]

p1stonhead said:

FourWheelDrift said:

p1stonhead said:

mikal83 said:

rscott said:

Yipper said:

The NRA are correct on their core point -- US states with higher gun ownership rates generally have lower gun death rates. More guns = less death. It is counterintuitive, but true (inside the US). Until people start to grasp that point, and find a strong counterargument (they don't care about other countries), the NRA will just stick to their, err, guns. You're just gonna keep going round in circles.

As for arming teachers -- that may actually have a deterrent effect on mass-shooters. If pupils or ex-pupils see their teachers are armed, some will "think twice" before going on a rampage. Of course, the number of accidental deaths from extra guns in schools will probably far outweigh the number of deterred mass-shootings. But the Americans won't care, as long as the mass-shooting incidents come down. The means nearly always justify the ends, for America.

Yipper, you've been asked for evidence for the claim that higher gun ownership correlates with lower gun death rates, but haven't supplied any. In fact, others have posted research to the contrary.

For example,

Interesting to see where the redneck states are compared to New England!

Assuming the above is an accurate chart, it kills dead any argument against gun control. How can anyone argue against it?

There's this as well, if it hasn't been posted already - https://www.safehome.org/resources/gun-laws-and-de...

So the exact opposite of what Yipper said. As per normal proceedings.

Given the biases of Mother Jones and the sources of the data, I sincerely doubt that is an complete and accurate portrayal of the issue. For staters, the CDC data on deaths includes all deaths, the majority of which are suicides. The debate about just guns and suicide could fill a whole other thread, and that is a huge chunk of the data presented.

[andy_s]

mko9 said:

Given the biases of Mother Jones and the sources of the data, I sincerely doubt that is an complete and accurate portrayal of the issue. For staters, the CDC data on deaths includes all deaths, the majority of which are suicides. The debate about just guns and suicide could fill a whole other thread, and that is a huge chunk of the data presented.

Have a look at Australian suicide rates pre and post gun control, it'll show you less guns = less suicides = less deaths; less guns is still the common factor in lowering deaths, whether self-inflicted, accidental or deliberate. I don't think there's much need to navel gaze and pick them apart; they fundamentally show the same thing.

[captain_cynic]

andy_s said:

Have a look at Australian suicide rates pre and post gun control, it'll show you less guns = less suicides = less deaths; less guns is still the common factor in lowering deaths, whether self-inflicted, accidental or deliberate. I don't think there's much need to navel gaze and pick them apart; they fundamentally show the same thing.

There's no point in arguing with a fanatic.

He'll just claim the ABS (Australian Bureau of Statistics) is a biased source and carry on spouting nonsense.

[mko9]

andy_s said:

mko9 said:

Given the biases of Mother Jones and the sources of the data, I sincerely doubt that is an complete and accurate portrayal of the issue. For staters, the CDC data on deaths includes all deaths, the majority of which are suicides. The debate about just guns and suicide could fill a whole other thread, and that is a huge chunk of the data presented.

Have a look at Australian suicide rates pre and post gun control, it'll show you less guns = less suicides = less deaths; less guns is still the common factor in lowering deaths, whether self-inflicted, accidental or deliberate. I don't think there's much need to navel gaze and pick them apart; they fundamentally show the same thing.

Have a look at the Japanese suicide rates. They also have virtually no guns, but an astronomical suicide rate.

Or are you arguing that two different countries on opposite sides of the planet are the same, but two other countries on opposite sides of the planet are different?

[andy_s]

mko9 said:

andy_s said:

mko9 said:

Given the biases of Mother Jones and the sources of the data, I sincerely doubt that is an complete and accurate portrayal of the issue. For staters, the CDC data on deaths includes all deaths, the majority of which are suicides. The debate about just guns and suicide could fill a whole other thread, and that is a huge chunk of the data presented.

Have a look at Australian suicide rates pre and post gun control, it'll show you less guns = less suicides = less deaths; less guns is still the common factor in lowering deaths, whether self-inflicted, accidental or deliberate. I don't think there's much need to navel gaze and pick them apart; they fundamentally show the same thing.

Have a look at the Japanese suicide rates. They also have virtually no guns, but an astronomical suicide rate.

Or are you arguing that two different countries on opposite sides of the planet are the same, but two other countries on opposite sides of the planet are different?

Neither, I'm looking at changes of the quantity of weapons in a society and it's effect on deaths.

'If we gave the Japanese a gun each, would suicides increase or decrease?' may have been the better question.

[Dr Jekyll]

andy_s said:

Have a look at Australian suicide rates pre and post gun control, it'll show you less guns = less suicides = less deaths; less guns is still the common factor in lowering deaths, whether self-inflicted, accidental or deliberate. I don't think there's much need to navel gaze and pick them apart; they fundamentally show the same thing.

The Australian changes were initially a ban on semi automatic rifles and shotguns. Later a 10 capacity magazine limit for pistols and a maximum calibre of just over 9mm.

I can understand how these restrictions might affect someone planning a mass shooting, but are hardly relevant to suicides for which 10 rounds is usually more than enough.

[frankenstein12]

p1stonhead said:

frankenstein12 said:

p1stonhead said:

frankenstein12 said:

Loskey said:

Bullet proof back packs

http://wesh.com/article/bulletproof-backpacks-put-...

I think I read that some of the kids at the school who were members of an NRA program at the school had those and used them to protect classmates. Can't really remember correct details.

1. Sounds like an advert for the NRA/Captain America Shield type stuff and is a fairly remarkable tale if true....
2. Cant find source anywhere despite item 1.

hmm....

Hence the words " I think I read " which tends to show uncertainty of fact.. :-)

'I made it up'

Gotcha

Hey heres an idea. If you can't help being a condescending offensive douche don't comment..

[p1stonhead]

frankenstein12 said:

p1stonhead said:

frankenstein12 said:

p1stonhead said:

frankenstein12 said:

Loskey said:

Bullet proof back packs

http://wesh.com/article/bulletproof-backpacks-put-...

I think I read that some of the kids at the school who were members of an NRA program at the school had those and used them to protect classmates. Can't really remember correct details.

1. Sounds like an advert for the NRA/Captain America Shield type stuff and is a fairly remarkable tale if true....
2. Cant find source anywhere despite item 1.

hmm....

Hence the words " I think I read " which tends to show uncertainty of fact.. :-)

'I made it up'

Gotcha

Hey heres an idea. If you can't help being a condescending offensive douche don't comment..

Maybe just dont make up easily disprovable pro-NRA bks? Probably easier than having your feelings hurt petal.

Edited by p1stonhead on Tuesday 27th February 16:05

[captain_cynic]

Dr Jekyll said:

The Australian changes were initially a ban on semi automatic rifles and shotguns. Later a 10 capacity magazine limit for pistols and a maximum calibre of just over 9mm.

I can understand how these restrictions might affect someone planning a mass shooting, but are hardly relevant to suicides for which 10 rounds is usually more than enough.

There was a lot more to it than restricting semi-autos. The 1996-7 changes introduced stricter licensing and registration. A lot of Australians decided to get rid of their guns at that point regardless of if they were legal or not.

[Byker28i]

frankenstein12 said:

Hey heres an idea. If you can't help being a condescending offensive douche don't comment..

I posted what happened - it was an ROTC cadet used kevlar sheeting.
Here have another link
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/15/us/florida-scho...

Nothing to do with NRA at all, nor backpacks.

[andy_s]

Dr Jekyll said:

The Australian changes were initially a ban on semi automatic rifles and shotguns. Later a 10 capacity magazine limit for pistols and a maximum calibre of just over 9mm.

I can understand how these restrictions might affect someone planning a mass shooting, but are hardly relevant to suicides for which 10 rounds is usually more than enough.

I'm familiar with causation and correlation, and you're right to be careful - the continual drop in suicide rates in particular could show anomaly, but this itself could be explained by age demographics for suicides etc; the point is though that they surrendered three quarters of a million guns and rates for homicide, suicide and mass shootings fell, there's not been a mass shooting (5+, not 4+ as per the US) since '96. Unless there's any other direct major factor then the drop in gun related incidents would seem to follow the drop in gun availability, even if only in general terms.

The fact that Australians handed back this quantity of weaponry given it's relatively small population would also suggest the mentality of 'my cold dead hands' isn't as prevalent as in the US, and, rather like the Japanese example, other societal factors may be in play - this may have led to a decline in general interest in having and using guns as they become pariah or societally less acceptable; this leads to further and better scrutiny of those that do have them, how many are in circulation for criminals to steal and the proclivity of their use in general - if you have any examples of somewhere which shows an opposite correlation it'd be interesting to see.