Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8
Discussion
technodup said:
Edinburger said:
technodup said:
Edinburger said:
Before any future independence referendum, we need a robust analysis of iScotland's projected economy in the first X years.
That will let Scottish voters make an informed choice and hopefully prevent people posting offensive guff like this,
Absolutely and utterly pointless. Firstly because ALL predictions are just that, predictions, but mostly because whoever does the predicting will be seen as from one side or the other. If it's the Scottish Executive/EU/SNP then it's clearly biased in favour, if it's anyone/thing even slightly connected with Westminster/Toaries/British based business then the reverse. That will let Scottish voters make an informed choice and hopefully prevent people posting offensive guff like this,
And as for offence, you take it very easily but the real offence should be reserved for those who ignore our democratic choices. f
k your future referendum.
Wombat3 said:
Edinburger said:
I was working in London for a few days this week and a few colleagues were asking about this. Their opinion was that the Scots should get another independence referendum because we voted to remain part of the UK within Europe and that's about to change.
Hard to argue with them.
What a load of crap.Hard to argue with them.
2013 - EU referendum announced by Cameron with commitment to implement outcome
2014 SNP (Scottish Gov't) goes to EU and asks for Indy Scot EU membership as "a Successor state" nonsense. EU says no....at least twice, in writing.
2014 UK Govt helpfully points out that therefore the ONLY way Scotland can remain in the EU is to remain part of the UK.
2014 Scotland votes to remain in the UK but in the full knowledge that a UK wide EU ref was coming in 2016
Blindingly obvious that one possible outcome of that would be that the whole UK would leave.
Nobody ever promised Scotland that voting to remain in the UK would guarantee continued EU membership beyond 2016.
Meanwhile, leaving the UK would have guaranteed that Scotland would have had to leave the EU in 2014.
Even after we have left Indy Scotland doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of meeting the joining criteria & the Spanish are going to do everything possible to block it happening anyway.
THOSE are the facts.
SNP: "Democracy is great as long as we win"
Edited by Wombat3 on Friday 8th November 16:21
Here is a fairly pragmatic article outlining it - https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explaine...
Edinburger said:
Scotty2 said:
When they are going on about letting 16 year old and Non-UK Citizens have a vote, will they now include ex-pat Scots? Or will they not allow that in case they don't vote the correct way...
As an Ex-Pat Scot myself I also get wound up every time wee Nippy, or Ian Balloonford say "The People of Scotland....." They should be reminded that they represent SOME of the people of Scotland and by no means all !
AND it was a UK wide vote on the EU. The UK in or the UK out, not Dumfries in and Ayrshire out type lottery.
Why should expats get a vote? You made a choice to leave Scotland so why should you have a say in its politics?As an Ex-Pat Scot myself I also get wound up every time wee Nippy, or Ian Balloonford say "The People of Scotland....." They should be reminded that they represent SOME of the people of Scotland and by no means all !
AND it was a UK wide vote on the EU. The UK in or the UK out, not Dumfries in and Ayrshire out type lottery.
Before you get all uppity in your response, I lived overseas for four years (in Hong Kong) and at no point then did I ever think I should have any say in what was happening back home.
You could vote in Local, National and referenda in the constituency of your last UK address for the whole time you were in HK
Edinburger said:
No, it's not. Leaving the EU is a fundamental change to what some Scots voted to remain part of in 2014. And more Scots voted to remain the EU so this should be revisited.
It should not. There is no 'Scotland' as far as the EU vote goes. It concerned the UK, not Scotland, England, London or any other entity you want to try to make a biased case for.As far as fundamental change goes, the biggest of them that's actually been implemented in recent times was devolution. I think we've had time to assess its merits, and I'd now like my People's Confirmatory Vote where naturally I actually want to change the result.
We might start from a low base but campaigns are funny beasts, I think you'd be surprised by how many despise the SNP and their figureheads and would go back in a shot.
Edinburger said:
simoid said:
Edinburger said:
I was working in London for a few days this week and a few colleagues were asking about this. Their opinion was that the Scots should get another independence referendum because we voted to remain part of the UK within Europe and that's about to change.
Hard to argue with them.
Not really difficult.Hard to argue with them.
That was a known risk when we voted in our once in a lifetime referendum. Just like oil revenues collapsing, Salmond turning out to be a bare faced liar, Trump getting in and taxing hell out of Whisky, etc. We took the risk that we wouldn’t agree with everything that happened whether we were in or out of UK.
I suppose if Scotland did vote again to leave the UK and got a majority, and reapplied for EU membership and managed to meet all entry criteria, at least the currency issue would be clear. Scotland would have to adopt the Euro.
I guess having different currencies between Ireland and Northern Ireland works fine, so not a big deal.
No doubt SNP would argue that they'll either be allowed to keep Sterling or have their own McCurrency though.
I guess having different currencies between Ireland and Northern Ireland works fine, so not a big deal.
No doubt SNP would argue that they'll either be allowed to keep Sterling or have their own McCurrency though.
Edinburger said:
No, it's not. Leaving the EU is a fundamental change to what some Scots voted to remain part of in 2014. And more Scots voted to remain the EU so this should be revisited.
Seeing as we are quoting meaningless statistics - more Scots voted to leave in the EU in 2016 than voted for the SNP in the General Election of 2017.Nicola this week branded all Brexiteers hard-right extremists. I wonder how Mhairi Black took that criticism?
Edinburger said:
I was working in London for a few days this week and a few colleagues were asking about this. Their opinion was that the Scots should get another independence referendum because we voted to remain part of the UK within Europe and that's about to change.
Hard to argue with them.
Au contraire.Hard to argue with them.
Scots voted to remain part of the UK. (That was a full stop).
technodup said:
Edinburger said:
No, it's not. Leaving the EU is a fundamental change to what some Scots voted to remain part of in 2014. And more Scots voted to remain the EU so this should be revisited.
It should not. There is no 'Scotland' as far as the EU vote goes. It concerned the UK, not Scotland, England, London or any other entity you want to try to make a biased case for.As far as fundamental change goes, the biggest of them that's actually been implemented in recent times was devolution. I think we've had time to assess its merits, and I'd now like my People's Confirmatory Vote where naturally I actually want to change the result.
We might start from a low base but campaigns are funny beasts, I think you'd be surprised by how many despise the SNP and their figureheads and would go back in a shot.
Edinburger said:
Wombat3 said:
Edinburger said:
I was working in London for a few days this week and a few colleagues were asking about this. Their opinion was that the Scots should get another independence referendum because we voted to remain part of the UK within Europe and that's about to change.
Hard to argue with them.
What a load of crap.Hard to argue with them.
2013 - EU referendum announced by Cameron with commitment to implement outcome
2014 SNP (Scottish Gov't) goes to EU and asks for Indy Scot EU membership as "a Successor state" nonsense. EU says no....at least twice, in writing.
2014 UK Govt helpfully points out that therefore the ONLY way Scotland can remain in the EU is to remain part of the UK.
2014 Scotland votes to remain in the UK but in the full knowledge that a UK wide EU ref was coming in 2016
Blindingly obvious that one possible outcome of that would be that the whole UK would leave.
Nobody ever promised Scotland that voting to remain in the UK would guarantee continued EU membership beyond 2016.
Meanwhile, leaving the UK would have guaranteed that Scotland would have had to leave the EU in 2014.
Even after we have left Indy Scotland doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of meeting the joining criteria & the Spanish are going to do everything possible to block it happening anyway.
THOSE are the facts.
SNP: "Democracy is great as long as we win"
Edited by Wombat3 on Friday 8th November 16:21
Here is a fairly pragmatic article outlining it - https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explaine...
HTH
biggles330d said:
I suppose if Scotland did vote again to leave the UK and got a majority, and reapplied for EU membership and managed to meet all entry criteria, at least the currency issue would be clear. Scotland would have to adopt the Euro.
I guess having different currencies between Ireland and Northern Ireland works fine, so not a big deal.
No doubt SNP would argue that they'll either be allowed to keep Sterling or have their own McCurrency though.
Keeping Sterling is not compatible with EU membership nor entry to the eurozone, that much was made clear in 2014, never mind the concept of the BoE being LOLR is slightly less popular with most non-SNP politicians than a stale sI guess having different currencies between Ireland and Northern Ireland works fine, so not a big deal.
No doubt SNP would argue that they'll either be allowed to keep Sterling or have their own McCurrency though.
t sandwich.hidetheelephants said:
Keeping Sterling is not compatible with EU membership nor entry to the eurozone, that much was made clear in 2014, never mind the concept of the BoE being LOLR is slightly less popular with most non-SNP politicians than a stale st sandwich.
The party members know that Scotland having its own currency is the only viable first step forward. Remember - all the other suggestions were made in the days when Salmond the liar was in charge. The current fluff about Sterlingisation is just the party executive slowly backing away from Salmond's lies.t sandwich.Edinburger said:
Welshbeef said:
REALIST123 said:
Could you read through that and edit it into English, Welshbeef.......
Sure. The Scottish position is a farce and utterly unfair to other parts of the U.K.
You understand the principle of devolution, I assume?
Then Scotland’s deficit 2018/19 year £15billion, U.K. as a TOTAL £23billion deficit.
So in addition to paying more to your citizens your not even remotely brining in enough tax for it and forcing future generations of the U.K. to pay for your excesses.
Given Income tax is £11 billion in its entirety and way over half the working population in Scotland work in the public sector & the U.K. subs out lots of work to Scotland for those public sector workers. I just wonder what jobs and where the £ or €$¥ will come from to pay for the future?
Welshbeef said:
Um more tax money spent in Scotland per capita than anywhere else in the U.K. (the poorest Wales and N Ireland get the least). Not really FAIR is it - and then to rub salt into the would give free education to EU and Scottish born but charge RUK. I meant you’ve got a lot of front.
Then Scotland’s deficit 2018/19 year £15billion, U.K. as a TOTAL £23billion deficit.
So in addition to paying more to your citizens your not even remotely brining in enough tax for it and forcing future generations of the U.K. to pay for your excesses.
Given Income tax is £11 billion in its entirety and way over half the working population in Scotland work in the public sector & the U.K. subs out lots of work to Scotland for those public sector workers. I just wonder what jobs and where the £ or €$¥ will come from to pay for the future?
In simple terms Then Scotland’s deficit 2018/19 year £15billion, U.K. as a TOTAL £23billion deficit.
So in addition to paying more to your citizens your not even remotely brining in enough tax for it and forcing future generations of the U.K. to pay for your excesses.
Given Income tax is £11 billion in its entirety and way over half the working population in Scotland work in the public sector & the U.K. subs out lots of work to Scotland for those public sector workers. I just wonder what jobs and where the £ or €$¥ will come from to pay for the future?
The books don’t balance .. Scotland is not self sustaining and is reliant on rUK
Standing alone, it is not sustainable in its current form
Earthdweller said:
In simple terms
The books don’t balance .. Scotland is not self sustaining and is reliant on rUK
Standing alone, it is not sustainable in its current form
From 1707 to 2019 it would be interesting how many years they were actually in the black - especially if all the decommissioning of the oil rigs were taking into consideration plus the bailout of the Caledonian experiment plus Bank of Scotland Royal Bank of Scotland. Also if Faslane had never been built all those high paying jobs The books don’t balance .. Scotland is not self sustaining and is reliant on rUK
Standing alone, it is not sustainable in its current form
Welshbeef said:
Earthdweller said:
In simple terms
The books don’t balance .. Scotland is not self sustaining and is reliant on rUK
Standing alone, it is not sustainable in its current form
From 1707 to 2019 it would be interesting how many years they were actually in the black - especially if all the decommissioning of the oil rigs were taking into consideration plus the bailout of the Caledonian experiment plus Bank of Scotland Royal Bank of Scotland. Also if Faslane had never been built all those high paying jobs The books don’t balance .. Scotland is not self sustaining and is reliant on rUK
Standing alone, it is not sustainable in its current form
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff