CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 5)

[Elysium]

Another great article by Carl Hegneghan. The ten worst COVID data failures:


https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-ten-worst-...

The big issue for me is that we act as if we can see what is going on with this disease, when the clear reality is that we don’t really have a clue. Most of our data is founded on a flawed assumption that a PCR test alone is sufficient to determine who is ‘infected’ without any regard for long-standing medical practice and clinical diagnosis.

PHE do not even bother to record the symptoms of people taking the tests.

The 2 week isolation period is driven by fear of asymptomatic transmission which remains unproven. None of the measures we have implemented have a clear, measurable objective. We are just trying random stuff to see what works.

[Elysium]

Boringvolvodriver said:

Elysium said:

Something I had not even thought of. We are testing people on admission to hospices:

https://www.stbarnabas-hospice.org.uk/covid-19/

On one level, I entirely understand the reasoning for this, but if those tested are positive then the chances that they will go on to be classified as a COVID death by dying with 28 days are obviously very high. They are already dying,

Reading those guidance also brings home the crushing oppressiveness of the situation for those who are dying of other conditions right now and the forced separation from loved ones that they must be experiencing,

This is well meant, but it is terrible and in humane. We have to get to grips with reality.

Totally agree - it goes against what the aim of a hospice is. Having lost both parents and a grandparent to cancer, I know what comfort a hospice brings. That said, only allowing 2 visitors after a negative test, is totally inhumane.

And the terrible thing is that families will desperately want to bring that person home so that they can be physically close to them in their final days, but they will have to face the stark reality that they are probably unable to care for them properly if they do.

It really is awful bludgeoning state oppression, from which the individual has almost no escape.

How have we come to this?

[GT03ROB]

JagLover said:

menousername said:

Tuna, is that you?

Of course, bankers and fund managers cannot work remotely.

And those flying in, not already in, are all managing funds registered in the UK and not the Cayman Islands, etc.

There are a number of us who recognise that we need a functioning economy.

Yes working from home is an option for most things but there will still be a need for visits as well. I dont think it is remotely controversial that the head of Japanese multi-national visiting the UK sub should be treated more favourably than a student on a gap year.

Maybe the answer is exempt all business related travel.........

[rival38]

My wife volunteers at local hospice, various non medical duties as needed. Patients are swabbed ( I think weekly ) if possitive they are transfered to hospital. I think some of the ‘admitted to hospital with Covid - then died’ stats come from this type of admission where the patient was already terminal with another diagnosis. I can see why it might be a good idea....but what if the test is false possitive, cruel.

[Elysium]

This is devastating.

How Matt Hancock holds us all in contempt:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8875213...

Dr Ellie Cannon said:

And he will be remembered for the callous way he preened and made hollow statements, claiming nothing he was doing could possibly be wrong while ignoring the true health crisis this country is now facing – one which is the fault of the Government itself.

I don’t think I have ever read anything quite so damning. Hancock is a dead man walking.

[Alucidnation]

Elysium said:

This is devastating.

How Matt Hancock holds us all in contempt:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8875213...

Dr Ellie Cannon said:

And he will be remembered for the callous way he preened and made hollow statements, claiming nothing he was doing could possibly be wrong while ignoring the true health crisis this country is now facing – one which is the fault of the Government itself.

I don’t think I have ever read anything quite so damning. Hancock is a dead man walking.

To be fair, he is probably fed up with repeating himself so does that to save time.

[the-photographer]

Elysium said:

So SAGE are outliers as well based on that logic?

I agree with you to some extent. If I was in charge I would ask Gupta, Heneghan and Yeadon to join SAGE.

We are underestimating the historic significance of the situation we have just lived through. The SAGE members are affected by groupthink and will be desperate to hold on to some sort of professional legacy. If they have made a colossal error, then they will not want to admit it. They may not even be psychologically capable of doing so.

Depends on the audience, sage for PH posters is definitely an outlier, just see the previous 2000 pages. For the general population, maybe bell curve.

For me they've been constrained by their terms of reference, which is both good and bad. The history book when its written will be thousands of pages thick and contain a little solace for everyone.

Let's come back in five years, the truth will be in the middle.

[dangerousB]

Alucidnation said:

To be fair, he is probably fed up with repeating himself so does that to save time.

To be fair, he's got to question why he's being asked the same questions, so many times, from so many sources.

[Douglas Quaid]

The danmask study is quite interesting. If they have found that masks increase the spread of the virus by nebulising the spray so it spreads easier, shouldn’t that be public knowledge? The government have got a get out as they can simply say new research has emerged, or even use their favourite line ‘evidence continues to grow’. Except this time there would be actual evidence.

It would be a bit of a change around for the entire world to stop wearing masks though, just can’t see it happening even if the evidence does show they’re worse than nothing.

[the-photographer]

MikeT66 said:

Hold on - that makes no sense. Aren't we supposed to be going through all this st to protect the elderly/at risk groups... but the government have done their own 'sentencing to death' policy on those exact groups?

Old news, those DNR orders were signed in March/April.

The press are having another go at the story.

[isaldiri]

JagLover said:

Misanthrope said:

Interesting report from Japan:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.21...

Found 46.8% seroprevalence in Tokyo at the end of August.
I guess it's probably all over for them. No lockdown, 1700 odd deaths out of 126 million (PFR = 13.5ppm).

Good news for them. But the bad news for us is, if our figures of 20% infected in London are correct, even there could have a way to go ...

Very interesting and those are very high numbers for those infected.

I know that obesity is much less of a problem in Japan but for a country with such a high number of elderly to have such a low death rate must surely mean there is something else going on. That something highly likely to be the protection offered by prior exposure to similar coronaviruses.

If you look at the death rate the impact of Covid-19 on those infected in Japan is barely more than the impact of a cold.

It's also one survey that is completely at odds with every other antibody survey done in Japan which has suggested much lower prevalence levels. If it is correct it probably simply reflects a quirk of that particular cohort of workers and nothing like the general population. And if japan and east asia had protection from some mysterious coronavirus (that no one has ever detected) as you suggest - why haven't they been able to spread that mysterious virus elsewhere around the world previously so more people would similarly be protected?

[Elysium]

the-photographer said:

Old news, those DNR orders were signed in March/April.

The press are having another go at the story.

What is your agenda here? Why are you attempting to downplay this?

The story has not been told previously, because it is only now that the public are beginning to grasp the idea that they may have been misled about the severity of the virus and the systemic risk that we faced.

The actions being exposed might have made sense in the face of an exceptionally deadly virus. But we have data now, people are beginning to understand what the threat really was. They need to hear this story, because it helps to explain why we have more than 20k additional deaths due to conditions other than COVID.

The Govts policies have killed people. This needs to be discussed as a mainstream issue.

[isaldiri]

pneumothorax said:

I did not. But yes, many of my colleagues did, and I would have not majored in the "denied ITU" line if I was writing that article, they were simply denied appropriate care in hospital's. They were "encouraged" to quickly enter a palliative care pathway, hastily...

I realise you aren't an icu doctor but per the very first ISARIC report in April, it was noted on here (well the other covid thread anyway) that the vast majority of deaths were taking place in normal wards rather than in intensive care. Do you think the same that you found wrt to refusing to take people to hospitals might have happened in hospitals moving patients to icu? Because it always seemed to me a little weird to simply be allowing large numbers of people to die on a normal ward with seemingly little effort to save them in icu.

Although i take the point invasive ventilation might not be suitable for 80+ people and perhaps high flow oxygen was able to be given on a normal ward but surely there's something in between extra oxygen and full scale ventilation ICU might be able to provide.....?

Edited by isaldiri on Sunday 25th October 10:55

[Elysium]

isaldiri said:

JagLover said:

Misanthrope said:

Interesting report from Japan:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.21...

Found 46.8% seroprevalence in Tokyo at the end of August.
I guess it's probably all over for them. No lockdown, 1700 odd deaths out of 126 million (PFR = 13.5ppm).

Good news for them. But the bad news for us is, if our figures of 20% infected in London are correct, even there could have a way to go ...

Very interesting and those are very high numbers for those infected.

I know that obesity is much less of a problem in Japan but for a country with such a high number of elderly to have such a low death rate must surely mean there is something else going on. That something highly likely to be the protection offered by prior exposure to similar coronaviruses.

If you look at the death rate the impact of Covid-19 on those infected in Japan is barely more than the impact of a cold.

It's also one survey that is completely at odds with every other antibody survey done in Japan which has suggested much lower prevalence levels. If it is correct it probably simply reflects a quirk of that particular cohort of workers and nothing like the general population. And if japan and east asia had protection from some mysterious coronavirus (that no one has ever detected) as you suggest - why haven't they been able to spread that mysterious virus elsewhere around the world previously so more people would similarly be protected?

You have ignored the central reason why the findings might differ from other serology studies. Explain the possible mechanisms for this ‘quirk’ please as you seem very confident it exists.

[isaldiri]

Elysium said:

You have ignored the central reason why the findings might differ from other serology studies. Explain the possible mechanisms for this ‘quirk’ please as you seem very confident it exists.

Do enlighten me about this 'central reason' you are so confident about that makes this one study accurate but every other antibody study wrong.....?

[Alucidnation]

dangerousB said:

Alucidnation said:

To be fair, he is probably fed up with repeating himself so does that to save time.

To be fair, he's got to question why he's being asked the same questions, so many times, from so many sources.

True.

[JagLover]

isaldiri said:

It's also one survey that is completely at odds with every other antibody survey done in Japan which has suggested much lower prevalence levels. If it is correct it probably simply reflects a quirk of that particular cohort of workers and nothing like the general population. And if japan and east asia had protection from some mysterious coronavirus (that no one has ever detected) as you suggest - why haven't they been able to spread that mysterious virus elsewhere around the world previously so more people would similarly be protected?

It is not just me who suggested it. It was a claim by a Japanese professor.

As to why, well different places do have different past exposures to infectious diseases and the world was far less interconnected in the past.

[Elysium]

isaldiri said:

Elysium said:

You have ignored the central reason why the findings might differ from other serology studies. Explain the possible mechanisms for this ‘quirk’ please as you seem very confident it exists.

Do enlighten me about this 'central reason' you are so confident about that makes this one study accurate but every other antibody study wrong.....?

I didn’t say that this study was accurate and others were wrong.

I posted earlier this morning about the core difference, which is interesting and should be investigated further.

What I am shocked about is your dismissal of something that does not fit the existing data and your attempt to reason it away as a ‘quirk’. That is about as unscientific as it is possible to get.

The data that does not fit is gold dust. It is where we find insight:

[ruggedscotty]

Its being widely reported that they are going to start vaccinations of the NHS before christmas...

Two doses 28 days apart. and it by all accounts works, and its the oxford team that have done the work... We may be at the end of the tunnel with this soon enough.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8875931/C...

[anonymous-user]

Turfy said:

£11Bn!!!!!!

https://apple.news/A0jMxVYU8SPqvGwnNmRProQ

it was 1 billion. The Gov are currently being sued for it. Add it to the list of absolutely abhorrent things they have done.