Discussion
Breadvan72 said:
The net in general, which contains all of human knowledge and wonderfulness, also contains and nurtures all of human stupidity and hateyness. The net tends to encourage the idea that all opinions are equal, regardless of whether an opinion has any foundation in evidence or is supported by or can stand up to reasoned argument.
This hits the nail firmly on the head. Where did the idea that everyone is entitled to an opinion on any given subject come from? Is it some kind of 'freedom of speech' issue? XCP said:
Breadvan72 said:
The net in general, which contains all of human knowledge and wonderfulness, also contains and nurtures all of human stupidity and hateyness. The net tends to encourage the idea that all opinions are equal, regardless of whether an opinion has any foundation in evidence or is supported by or can stand up to reasoned argument.
This hits the nail firmly on the head. Where did the idea that everyone is entitled to an opinion on any given subject come from? Is it some kind of 'freedom of speech' issue? 
king idiots, in my opinion.
XCP said:
There are a great many things I know nothing whatsoever about. Does that mean I am entitled to an opinion on, say, quantum mechanics, if I know fk all about it?
I would say not, but then that's just my opinion.
Yes, you're entitled to an opinion. I wouldn't give your opinion the time of day, but you are entitled to it. If you get upset because I don't value your opinion as much as I value the opinion of a professor in quantum mechanics, then you'll be in good company on Twitter. k all about it?I would say not, but then that's just my opinion.
Nothingtoseehere said:
Breadvan72 said:
I echo the point made above about the idiot Gove and his "enough of experts". From this case, to Brexit, to Climate Change and beyond, everywhere we see experts derided and idiocracy rampant. Harrumph!
Good.TwigtheWonderkid said:
XCP said:
There are a great many things I know nothing whatsoever about. Does that mean I am entitled to an opinion on, say, quantum mechanics, if I know fk all about it?
I would say not, but then that's just my opinion.
Yes, you're entitled to an opinion. I wouldn't give your opinion the time of day, but you are entitled to it. If you get upset because I don't value your opinion as much as I value the opinion of a professor in quantum mechanics, then you'll be in good company on Twitter. k all about it?I would say not, but then that's just my opinion.
Living in this trollocracy we have now shows that an uninformed opinion is as highly regarded as that of someone who has spent decades doing research. To me, it readily identifies which opinions are valid as per se.
If XCP has an opinion on something quantum mechanichy then fair enough. But saying 'I think that such and such is this, and that is my opinion' is one thing. What is needed is for XCP to then go on and say 'I base my opinion on these facts'. The sign of a valid opinion is an opinion based upon stated facts, and being able to state and defend a personal opinion based on the evidence provided.
My opinions often change. Not because I'm wrong, but because the evidence to support my opinion can and often does change.
The other end of the scale are people who say 'This is my opinion and here are some facts to back me up' and refuse to acknowledge any further salient information that does not reinforce their opinion, particularly when those aforementioned facts are what he said/she said/bloke down the pub said.
I pity poor Breadvan, his teeth must be itching like a thrushy gash at the 'rights of the parents' quote. Basically, parents don't have any rights, a child is a living being, not a chattel.
A parent does not have rights. A parent has obligations. A child however has no such obligations. They do, however have rights. The obligations of the parents are to the rights of the child.
Friend of mine who is a primary school teacher is constantly exasperated by the parents of the children she teaches, and as I typed the above paragraph I had echoes in my head of something a parent had yelled at her. "It is my right as a parent to tell you how to do your job".
Stop this rock. I want to get off.......
Free speech is to be encouraged and defended, but I don't see opinions as matters of "entitlement". People are free to say what they think, but I suggest that an opinion is not property, and has no value unless supported by reasoning and, where the subject is one that admits of evidence, by evidence.
To be fair to Michael Gove, the full quote was seemingly directed at predominantly at economists, and was probably pretty accurate:
"In an interview during the EU referen-dum campaign, the then justice secretary was told that the leaders of the IFS, CBI, NHS and TUC all disagreed with him about Brexit. He had tried to reply that people have ‘had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong’. But he was picked up mid-sentence by his appalled interviewer. ‘Had enough of experts? Had enough of experts?’ Gove’s partial quote was held up to ridicule, as if it embodied Trump-style populist rage; the battle of emotion against reason.
As it turned out, the experts were all wrong — or, at least, everyone who predicted a instant and immediate recession after the referendum ended up feasting on humble pie. The Bank of England cut interest rates and printed money in response to an economic slowdown that now turns out to have been imaginary. Indeed, economic growth seems to have accelerated after the vote. Andy Haldane, chief economist of the Bank of England, recently spoke about the economics profession having had its ‘Michael Fish moment’ — a reputation-shredding failure of prediction. Economists, he said, are now ‘to some degree in crisis’."
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/michael-gove-w...
"In an interview during the EU referen-dum campaign, the then justice secretary was told that the leaders of the IFS, CBI, NHS and TUC all disagreed with him about Brexit. He had tried to reply that people have ‘had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong’. But he was picked up mid-sentence by his appalled interviewer. ‘Had enough of experts? Had enough of experts?’ Gove’s partial quote was held up to ridicule, as if it embodied Trump-style populist rage; the battle of emotion against reason.
As it turned out, the experts were all wrong — or, at least, everyone who predicted a instant and immediate recession after the referendum ended up feasting on humble pie. The Bank of England cut interest rates and printed money in response to an economic slowdown that now turns out to have been imaginary. Indeed, economic growth seems to have accelerated after the vote. Andy Haldane, chief economist of the Bank of England, recently spoke about the economics profession having had its ‘Michael Fish moment’ — a reputation-shredding failure of prediction. Economists, he said, are now ‘to some degree in crisis’."
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/michael-gove-w...
There is, however, a more general point about distrust of expertise and professionalism. No group of people deserves to be treated as an infallible priesthood whose members may never be challenged, but this doesn't mean that we should abandon all reliance on training, skill, and practice. As for Brexit and the economy, I would say that the jury remains out on that one, and some of the indicators are not looking super-cheerful, but that's maybe for another (947) thread(s).
Breadvan72 said:
Free speech is to be encouraged and defended, but I don't see opinions as matters of "entitlement". People are free to say what they think, but I suggest that an opinion is not property, and has no value unless supported by reasoning and, where the subject is one that admits of evidence, by evidence.
Surely people are free to voice worthless opinions with no evidence and little or no subject knowledge. It's up to us to ignore/laugh/ridicule accordingly. 
Of course people are free to voice stupid opinions. I simply suggest that using the language of "entitlement" may not be very helpful. Perhaps an entitlement ought to be earned by putting in some effort to inform yourself and/or to reason things through before gobbing off (I am kidding - that approach would make N,P&E an eerily quiet place!).
Or, as others put it above, Mr Idiot may be "entitled" to his opinion, but it remains an idiotic opinion and others are entitled to say so.
Or, as others put it above, Mr Idiot may be "entitled" to his opinion, but it remains an idiotic opinion and others are entitled to say so.
Being a bear of little brain, I felt obliged to check Wikipedia for the Dunning-Kruger phenomenon. Whilst failing to understand most of the explanation, I was nonetheless delighted to read about the case of the incompetent robber who covered his face in lemon juice in order to render his face invisible and avoid detection.
Had I been drinking coffee, the screen would have been soaked.
Had I been drinking coffee, the screen would have been soaked.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Where people go wrong is that they think they are entitled to their own facts. And they also think their opinion is equal to every other opinion. That's because they are fking idiots, in my opinion.
Excellent! I may steal this, and pretend I thought of it!king idiots, in my opinion.Brave Fart said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Where people go wrong is that they think they are entitled to their own facts. And they also think their opinion is equal to every other opinion. That's because they are fking idiots, in my opinion.
Excellent! I may steal this, and pretend I thought of it!king idiots, in my opinion.Wonder if the couple is gonna be making a few million quid a year or two later like the McCanns do.
Exclusive interviews.
Amazon book deals.
Wonder what is next?
I can see it now
"Our Charlie" in Parenting. $2k revenue per year. 5 star reviews from labor supporters.
"How to exploit the NHS and Taxpayer using EU human rights laws" - Business - Entreprunership = $250k revenue / year.
Exclusive interviews.
Amazon book deals.
Wonder what is next?
I can see it now
"Our Charlie" in Parenting. $2k revenue per year. 5 star reviews from labor supporters.
"How to exploit the NHS and Taxpayer using EU human rights laws" - Business - Entreprunership = $250k revenue / year.
I am no fan of the parents, but your rant calls for one point of clarification: The case was not about EU law, and was only partly about human rights law (and, by the way, the ECHR is not an EU instrument, and was drafted mainly by a Tory Lord Chancellor. The ECtHR is not an EU Court). The case turned on common law principles as to the determination of a child's best interests.
PS: I wonder what "entreprunership" might be.
PS: I wonder what "entreprunership" might be.
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