The Gender Non-binary debate.

[gizlaroc]

_dobbo_ said:

Often you say? Got any stats to back that up?

Don't forget - "Trans person happy after transitioning" doesn't generate quite the same number of hate clicks for the Daily Mail...

11% of Transwomen in 2015 in the States regretted surgery enough to have the surgery reversed.

That is 11% who regret it enough to go through with a reversal.

To me that says that there are 'often' regrets.

https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs...


I have said before about a good customer of mine, who has spoken very candidly about his experience.
He said it is amazing how many trans people he knows who have realised that maybe they are not trans at all, they just don't fit into the conforms that they feel they should be fitting into, conforms that are dictated by the society of a boy must do and feel this, and a girl must feel and do this to be 'normal'.
A lot of the time it is this judgement from the outside world that causes anxiety and depression, looking for who you are and to feel happy within yourself. You decide you are trans, you feel good for a while, but then the depression sinks back in, so you look for the next level, in which case it may be surgery. You built up to that point, often over many years, and when you get it done you feel euphoric, like you have found yourself.
The problem is the depression can start to creep back in, this time however, the reality of what you have now done can often be too much for some.

I'm not saying there is a right or a wrong, but I do think to be overjoyed and support children because they are doing something that will make them truly happy is naive at best, and could be letting them down as a parent.

Hopefully as we move life and as time goes on we will simply just have masculine boys and feminine girls and feminine boys and masculine girls and those inbetween, some may dress and act like society has dictated and some may not, but we won't even notice because we won't be labelling each other with silly names and we won't be getting outraged because someone uses the wrong word, it will just be life and hopefully people will just glide though it a little easier.

[_dobbo_]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you haven't read that PDF. You googled it, found the ultra christian website that had the headline you wanted to find and repeated it here.

I'll also suggest you wont find the 11% figure in that PDF.

That's before we even get into the fact that the health system in the US and here are a little bit different.

[8.4L 154]

No the detransition rate due to gender transition not being for them was 0.4% of the overall sample and 5% of the detransitioners.

Overwhelmeingly detransitioning was due to outside pressure.

[gizlaroc]

_dobbo_ said:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you haven't read that PDF. You googled it, found the ultra christian website that had the headline you wanted to find and repeated it here.

I'll also suggest you wont find the 11% figure in that PDF.

That's before we even get into the fact that the health system in the US and here are a little bit different.

Page 111.

WTF has being in the States got to do with anything?



All I said was transitioning is often not the answer to finding happiness.
If you think it is, then fair enough. that's what you think.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

gizlaroc said:

All I said was transitioning is often not the answer to finding happiness.

Ok. And... what conclusion do you draw from this?

Transitioning may not be the answer to finding happiness for some. However, telling people who want to transition that they (can't / shouldn't / mustn't / need to jump through hoops for many years in order to do so) is definitely the answer to causing continued unhappiness.

[George Smiley]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

George Smiley said:

Is that the correct pronoun?

Ah, good point. Apologies. I should, of course, have checked if Eddie had clarified which to use since coming out as transgender.

A quick google is inconclusive. When awarded an honorary degree last year, they asked for female pronouns on the certificate, yet other reports say that they've said that either 'he' or 'she' is fine on several occasions.

Who are they? Who is they isn't grammatically correct so it implies that who they are is plural. :mindblown:

[George Smiley]

_dobbo_ said:

George Smiley said:

If she has a new voice, face, physique, penis - are you suggesting any parent would be overjoyed and not see it as a sort of death?

My view is different to yours, doesn’t make it less valid or mean the feelings I would have would be wrong.

I have two sons. My overwhelming preference is that they be healthy and happy. If that means transitioning of course I would be overjoyed, because they would be doing something to make themselves happier.

You say you have a daughter and you would see her transitioning as a sort of death, she would become a stranger.

Would you prefer your daughter to continue to live an unhappy life to spare your feelings?

Ah its genital ben, wading in with his snidey ways.

Would I want her happiness to be maintained?Yes
Would I be happy if that meant becoming someone completely different to who I have memories of?Yes

you do realise it is possible for the human brain to support opposing/conflicting views at the same time? Try applying that logic and you will see i've been rational

[Clockwork Cupcake]

George Smiley said:

Who are they? Who is they isn't grammatically correct so it implies that who they are is plural. :mindblown:

We've been through this in huge detail earlier in the thread, with you being a vocal contributor (or, at least, poster) at that time, so don't pretend the use of "they" in the singular is in some way news to you.

[George Smiley]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

George Smiley said:

Who are they? Who is they isn't grammatically correct so it implies that who they are is plural. :mindblown:

We've been through this in huge detail earlier in the thread, with you being a vocal contributor (or, at least, poster) at that time, so don't pretend the use of "they" in the singular is in some way news to you.

Can you make up a law to suit your needs? No, so dont expect the rest of us to have to bend the rules of the language to suit a non-issue.
you and 8.4l bullied someone with a learning difficulty over their correct assertion that they implied multiples as does them

as I come from the north the rules of grammar are loosely applied as it is but dont get your knickers in a twist if others prefer to not use they/or them as we dont all believe in gender fluidity.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

George Smiley said:

you and 8.4l bullied someone with a learning difficulty over their correct assertion that they implied multiples as does them

No we didn't. We provided examples of common usage, dictionary definitions, links to articles that discussed it (including one by the editor of the Oxford English Dictionary), and a weight of evidence to disprove the assertion.

Also, why did you write "their correct assertion" when referring to a singular person? Shouldn't that be "his correct assertion" according to you?

[gizlaroc]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

gizlaroc said:

All I said was transitioning is often not the answer to finding happiness.

Ok. And... what conclusion do you draw from this?

Transitioning may not be the answer to finding happiness for some. However, telling people who want to transition that they (can't / shouldn't / mustn't / need to jump through hoops for many years in order to do so) is definitely the answer to causing continued unhappiness.

If they are children I think it is right to make them hold off.

Why do so many think they need to transition and have surgery to be fully happy?

Why can you not be able to be feminine one day and masculine the next day? Or be feminine in a masculine body or vice versa?
I think if society was simply more accepting and less judgemental then we would not have the issues we have now.

[Gecko1978]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

gizlaroc said:

All I said was transitioning is often not the answer to finding happiness.

Ok. And... what conclusion do you draw from this?

Transitioning may not be the answer to finding happiness for some. However, telling people who want to transition that they (can't / shouldn't / mustn't / need to jump through hoops for many years in order to do so) is definitely the answer to causing continued unhappiness.

Normally I agree with you CC given you're balanced and open views. But re jumping through hoops. Well having surgery taking hormones is a big step some of which can not be undone so like the death penalty its best to have a lot of checks and reviews then if it all checks out off with your head (or other appendage)

Now I am making light as the two things are not alike but where they exist they are arguably better if a system is in place. So better qe assess someones mental health and motivations before they undergo surgery just like qe have a trial etc before we jail someone.

Big decisions which we as humans can not fully comprehend need to be made with the proper due dilligence. What that level is I have not idea but some hoop jumping seems appropriate.

[George Smiley]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

No we didn't. We provided examples of common usage, dictionary definitions, links to articles that discussed it (including one by the editor of the Oxford English Dictionary), and a weight of evidence to disprove the assertion.

Also, why did you write "their correct assertion" when referring to a singular person? Shouldn't that be "his correct assertion" according to you?

You were both really aggressive towards him (then) and others over the use of a pronoun that is correctly used and assumed to be about multiple subjects not singular.

Just because you are trans does not mean you aren’t wrong.

[_dobbo_]

George Smiley said:

Ah its genital ben, wading in with his snidey ways.

Would I want her happiness to be maintained?Yes
Would I be happy if that meant becoming someone completely different to who I have memories of?Yes

you do realise it is possible for the human brain to support opposing/conflicting views at the same time? Try applying that logic and you will see i've been rational

Based on all the things you've posted in this thread, I think the one thing it is safe to assume is that if your daughter ever does transition, she likely won't want anything to do with you ever again - so I guess in a way it will be like a death for you.

By the way nice one with "genital ben", a real blast from the past! The last time I heard that was when I was about 13 which is the last time anyone I know thought it would be funny.

Edited by _dobbo_ on Wednesday 4th March 18:00

[gregs656]

gizlaroc said:

I think if society was simply more accepting and less judgemental then we would not have the issues we have now.

Sorry to trim but I have no doubt this is the case.

Specifically I think there is an issue where people are less inclined to accept that people are different to them selves unless there is some kind of underlying medical or theoretic basis for that difference.

I think this has been useful in many ways, it is what drives progress around mental health for example. It is also, I think, useful in the transgender discussion as it is studied and there are some absolutely staggering insights from those studies that should give people pause for thought.

Where it is less helpful, I think, is when groups or individuals feel a need to be validated and so build a theoretical basis which doesn't seem to make much sense, and in many ways is a step back. Non-binary as an idea is the best example of this IMO.

It is crazy to me that the idea of men wearing heels and make up is such an affront to our ideas of masculinity that non-binary has been created.

I really don't think non-binary has a long shelf life, and like many things around this topic I feel like it is probably doing more harm than good to the general trans cause.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

gizlaroc said:

If they are children I think it is right to make them hold off.

Which is exactly how things are. Children are only prescribed puberty blockers.

gizlaroc said:

Why do so many think they need to transition and have surgery to be fully happy?

It varies from person to person. Some do, some don't.

For me personally, I don't feel the need to have surgery as I feel that it would not enhance my happiness - I'm very happy and secure in myself and any change to my genitals would be merely to pander to the expectations of others, rather than for myself. I could go through a load of very expensive and painful surgery, for what?
Although, having said that, I wouldn't mind having a boob job.

However, for others it is literally a case of transition or suicide, as they are so unhappy. I can't begin to imagine being in that situation, and am thankful that I am not.

gizlaroc said:

Why can you not be able to be feminine one day and masculine the next day? Or be feminine in a masculine body or vice versa?

If you can bear to scroll back to earlier in the thread (and I would not recommend it), that was debated at length and many of the contributors to this thread were vehemently against the idea. In fact, way back this was in fact the topic of the thread (as evidenced by the title).

gizlaroc said:

I think if society was simply more accepting and less judgemental then we would not have the issues we have now.

I can certainly agree with you there. And there has been great progress on that over the years, although we still have a way to go.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

George Smiley said:

You were both really aggressive towards him (then) and others over the use of a pronoun that is correctly used and assumed to be about multiple subjects not singular.

I don't really have the energy to go through this again. Especially as I quoted you using "their" in the singular.

Maybe you should take it up with the OED and Merriam-Webster rather than me?
OED: https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-sin...
Merriam-Webster: https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sing...

George Smiley said:

Just because you are trans does not mean you aren’t wrong.

Oh, absolutely. I even say so in my profile. I'm happy to be proved wrong and adjust my opinions based on new facts. The question is, though, are you?

[George Smiley]

_dobbo_ said:

George Smiley said:

Ah its genital ben, wading in with his snidey ways.

Would I want her happiness to be maintained?Yes
Would I be happy if that meant becoming someone completely different to who I have memories of?Yes

you do realise it is possible for the human brain to support opposing/conflicting views at the same time? Try applying that logic and you will see i've been rational

Based on all the things you've posted in this thread, I think the one thing it is safe to assume is that if your daughter ever does transition, she likely won't want anything to do with you ever again - so I guess in a way it will be like a death for you.

By the way nice one with "genital ben", a real blast from the past! The last time I heard that was when I was about 13 which is the last time anyone I know thought it would be funny.

Edited by _dobbo_ on Wednesday 4th March 18:00

Quite possibly, she’s turning more like her mum every day and as much as I love my girl if she follows the wrong path I’ll have distanced myself enough as to minimise any disappointments.

As for the joke, I chuckled, you should have gone to Rhodri’s wedding and told it.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

gregs656 said:

I really don't think non-binary has a long shelf life, and like many things around this topic I feel like it is probably doing more harm than good to the general trans cause.

Can I just ask how long you think that non-binary has been a thing?

It's just that many tribes of Native Americans had the concept before the American Colonisation (they called it "Two Spirit"), and many cultures such as in India and Asia have had the concept of non-binary or "Third Gender" for hundreds of years.

It's only in Western society that it is perceived as some kind of new thing.

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Wednesday 4th March 18:21

[Pesty]

rover 623gsi said:

get out of jail free card

https://metro.co.uk/2020/02/27/transgender-shoplif...

Transgender shoplifter spared jail when there is ‘no way to confirm her gender’


Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2020/02/27/transgender-shoplif...

Clown world