The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
George Smiley said:
Quite possibly, she’s turning more like her mum every day and as much as I love my girl if she follows the wrong path I’ll have distanced myself enough as to minimise any disappointments.
As for the joke, I chuckled, you should have gone to Rhodri’s wedding and told it.
I hope the first part is a joke.As for the joke, I chuckled, you should have gone to Rhodri’s wedding and told it.
As for the second part, who the f
k is Rhodri?! Clockwork Cupcake said:
Can I just ask how long you think that non-binary has been a thing?
It's just that many tribes of Native Americans had the concept before the American Colonisation (they called it "Two Spirit"), and many cultures such as in India and Asia have had the concept of non-binary or "Third Gender" for hundreds of years.
It's only in Western society that it is perceived as some kind of new thing.
I don't think you read my post too closely.It's just that many tribes of Native Americans had the concept before the American Colonisation (they called it "Two Spirit"), and many cultures such as in India and Asia have had the concept of non-binary or "Third Gender" for hundreds of years.
It's only in Western society that it is perceived as some kind of new thing.
Two spirit is a term that was created in 1990, and trys to capture in english many different concepts including sexuality (same sex attraction), to say two spirit is a direct translation of non-binary is misleading.
That is also true of the 'third gender' - which again is massively wrapped up in sexuality and is not a direct comparison to non-binary.
Probably sensible to set those to one side.
I think Western society has a long history of gender non-conforming men and women and language to go with it. It is the specific formulation of this as 'non-binary' and more specifically the dodgy theoretical basis that it is presented on which I think is the problem - not the people themselves, or the idea in principle, just the way it is currently being packaged.
8.4L 154 said:
Overwhelmeingly detransitioning was due to outside pressure.
You say that like gender as a concept is not outside pressure. Would people be transgender if there were no "gender roles" and the only material distinction between being male and female was healthcare and other such boring fleshy things?As for the GRA mandating living in gender roles, you can notionally oppose self-ID (which is what the gender critical people do) whilst at the same time also opposing the idea of gender stereotyping (which is also what gender critical people do). The choice is - aha - not binary.
gregs656 said:
Non binary people do not appose gender stereotyping. They rely on it, which is absurd.
Hmmm. I can't say I wholly agree.I think it is more an acknowledgement that society is still very rooted in a gender binary, but that they don't neatly fit into one of them.
I can see where you are coming from - if there was no gender binary then there would be no non-binary. But it's rather arse about face to conclude that non-binary people are therefore in favour of binary gender. That's absurd.
Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Wednesday 4th March 22:17
Is not conforming to societal expectations really deserving of getting extra recognition though? Like how women's awards have expanded into "women's and non-binary" awards? Especially at a time when self-ID is being pushed heavily, meaning any unscrupulous ahole not capable of winning a "men's" award could do nothing but claim to be "non-binary" and suddenly be in the running in a much smaller field etc...
At least in the slightly ridiculous gender-stereotypes "living as a gender" nonsense of the extant GRA, you would have to put some actual graft into living as a stereotype to become eligible for those awards, instead of just saying you're it.
(Not a directed "you" btw Clockwork, I just can't (be arsed) to figure out the pronoun of the hypothetical ahole who would do this)
hole not capable of winning a "men's" award could do nothing but claim to be "non-binary" and suddenly be in the running in a much smaller field etc...At least in the slightly ridiculous gender-stereotypes "living as a gender" nonsense of the extant GRA, you would have to put some actual graft into living as a stereotype to become eligible for those awards, instead of just saying you're it.
(Not a directed "you" btw Clockwork, I just can't (be arsed) to figure out the pronoun of the hypothetical a
hole who would do this)Edited by wst on Wednesday 4th March 22:26
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Hmmm. I can't say I wholly agree.
I think it is more an acknowledgement that society is still very rooted in a gender binary, but that they don't neatly fit into one of them.
I can see where you are coming from - if there was no gender binary then there would be no non-binary. But it's rather arse about face to conclude that non-binary people are therefore in favour of binary gender. That's absurd.
If they wanted to appose gender stereotyping then they could just put them selves out there as men or women who don’t conform. I think it is more an acknowledgement that society is still very rooted in a gender binary, but that they don't neatly fit into one of them.
I can see where you are coming from - if there was no gender binary then there would be no non-binary. But it's rather arse about face to conclude that non-binary people are therefore in favour of binary gender. That's absurd.
Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Wednesday 4th March 22:17
Instead we have this nonsense situation where they stereotype what it is to be male and female, usually using emotion and fashion, and then filter their own emotions and desires through those stereotypes.
This is not progressive.
Bacon Is Proof said:
Nolar created male personas that would then publicly declare their attraction to her.
Some serious mental health issues there.
Very open and blunt about the physical aspects of surgery, which was very educational (and eye-watering!).
Gosh, that explains a lot! I do recall that there was at least one seemingly male poster who seemed to be very interested in her. Don't recall the name though. Some serious mental health issues there.
Very open and blunt about the physical aspects of surgery, which was very educational (and eye-watering!).
Sorry for the side track.
As you were.
gregs656 said:
If they wanted to appose gender stereotyping then they could just put them selves out there as men or women who don’t conform.
Instead we have this nonsense situation where they stereotype what it is to be male and female, usually using emotion and fashion, and then filter their own emotions and desires through those stereotypes.
This is not progressive.
It's an interesting point of view. And I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying. Instead we have this nonsense situation where they stereotype what it is to be male and female, usually using emotion and fashion, and then filter their own emotions and desires through those stereotypes.
This is not progressive.
However, it's rather a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. If you try to be a disrupter and push for change then you're branded as having an agenda (something I have been accused of many times on these threads*), whereas if you don't then you're branded as complicit. Can't win either way, and are criticised either way too.
(* - my only 'agenda' is actually merely to try to turn uninformed opinion into informed opinion.
That's not aimed at you, btw. I mean it as a general comment)
Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Wednesday 4th March 23:15
We are kind of back to what I was saying initially I think.
As it stands at the moment it is difficult to make a change without having some justification beyond ‘well I like it’ because people want evidence or some kind of framework.
That’s a shame, because it would be much better in my opinion if we could accept that men can wear heels and be sad without compromising their masculinity.
It really puts us back. I mean, there is still a huge issue with gay men not being perceived as proper men.
The heels don’t care who puts them on.
Worth listening to Eddie Izzard on Joe Rogan, they spoke about his life and identity at length and I found his responses quite interesting. Not inclined to get into the weeds with it, just this is who I am.
I’d restate also I am talking specifically about non-binary.
As it stands at the moment it is difficult to make a change without having some justification beyond ‘well I like it’ because people want evidence or some kind of framework.
That’s a shame, because it would be much better in my opinion if we could accept that men can wear heels and be sad without compromising their masculinity.
It really puts us back. I mean, there is still a huge issue with gay men not being perceived as proper men.
The heels don’t care who puts them on.
Worth listening to Eddie Izzard on Joe Rogan, they spoke about his life and identity at length and I found his responses quite interesting. Not inclined to get into the weeds with it, just this is who I am.
I’d restate also I am talking specifically about non-binary.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
gregs656 said:
Non binary people do not appose gender stereotyping. They rely on it, which is absurd.
Hmmm. I can't say I wholly agree.I think it is more an acknowledgement that society is still very rooted in a gender binary, but that they don't neatly fit into one of them.
I can see where you are coming from - if there was no gender binary then there would be no non-binary. But it's rather arse about face to conclude that non-binary people are therefore in favour of binary gender. That's absurd.
Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Wednesday 4th March 22:17
Astacus said:
Bacon Is Proof said:
Nolar created male personas that would then publicly declare their attraction to her.
Some serious mental health issues there.
Very open and blunt about the physical aspects of surgery, which was very educational (and eye-watering!).
Some serious mental health issues there.
Very open and blunt about the physical aspects of surgery, which was very educational (and eye-watering!).
Gosh, that explains a lot! I do recall that there was at least one seemingly male poster who seemed to be very interested in her. Don't recall the name though.
Sorry for the side track.
As you were.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
The thing I can never understand is that most people accept that it's possible to be bisexual - that sexuality isn't binary - yet can't get their head around the same concept with regards to gender identity.
WRT gender identity - do you mean transgender, non-binary or genderfluidity?I can understand transgender, it makes sense.
I cannot understand nonbinary or genderfluidity, it does not make sense to me. I think I could accept the concept of agender, if it exists, I can understand "I don't feel like I'm either", but not subsequently inventing a new gender.
amusingduck said:
Clockwork Cupcake said:
The thing I can never understand is that most people accept that it's possible to be bisexual - that sexuality isn't binary - yet can't get their head around the same concept with regards to gender identity.
WRT gender identity - do you mean transgender, non-binary or genderfluidity?I can understand transgender, it makes sense.
I cannot understand nonbinary or genderfluidity, it does not make sense to me. I think I could accept the concept of agender, if it exists, I can understand "I don't feel like I'm either", but not subsequently inventing a new gender.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
The thing I can never understand is that most people accept that it's possible to be bisexual - that sexuality isn't binary - yet can't get their head around the same concept with regards to gender identity.
Bi sexuality is still binaryChanging gender is still binary
Gender fluidity is bulls
tThe first two issues require no changes to language or anything to be accepted but as soon as you try to force an unnecessary change you will rightly face resistance
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