Is it ok to take holiday while off work for stress?

[scenario8]

I doubt many private companies in modern times would pay full pay for long for prolonged sickness be it of the broken back variety or the mysterious mental health variety commonly dismissed by internettists as illegitimate. Not to say that abuse never happens, of course.

[rpguk]

Oakey said:

This is the charity in question:

http://www.dowlaisenginehouse.co.uk/

It's not like he was running fking Greenpeace.

Interesting... The charity says the dismissal wasn't to do with the trip to Australia.

Charity Website said:

http://www.dowlaisenginehouse.co.uk/index.php?opt=...

Mr Paul Marshallsea was dismissed for a variety of issues relating to the period leading up to the commencement of his sickness absence in April 2012. None of the issues related to his recent holiday in Australia. The Trustees are not in a position to make any further comment as to do so could involve divulging personal information relating to Mr Marshallsea a former employee

[mph1977]

scenario8 said:

I doubt many private companies in modern times would pay full pay for long for prolonged sickness be it of the broken back variety or the mysterious mental health variety commonly dismissed by internettists as illegitimate. Not to say that abuse never happens, of course.

depends on the grade of the employee

Middle managers, professionals and senior staff often receive benefits far in excess of those 'gold plated' public sector arrangements ...

Also it is nigh on impossible to dismiss solely on the basis of ill health, only on capability basis related to attendance or because reasonable adaptations cannot be made and there is no comparable role elsewhere in the business which can be made suitable by virtue or reasonable adaptation ...

less senior personnel in the private sector are often disposed of because they don;t take action to prevent mistreatment by employers e.g. by being a member of a Union or professional representative organisation/

[mph1977]

ShredderXLE said:

mph1977 said:

Are you stating that ALL mental health conditions are malingering ?

As your stupid brave statement could be read that way,

Alternatively it could be deduced that you do not believe that people with mental health problems and their offspring should not be allowed a job or house and should be being warehoused in pauper lunatic colonies ... as the playthings of J. Savile and/or the nuns and priests of the Catholic church ?

What on earth are you dribbling on about! This is to do with work related stress - where has the topic been at any point discussing mental illness, care homes and Jimmy Savile?

Its to do with me not believing it is fair for an employer to have to pay a member of staff to sit at home because they find the work they are doing too stressful.

Work related stress is a Mental Illness ...

Occupational sick pay is a contractual matter, there is a difference between someone being on Medically certified sick leave and an employer paying them to do so ...

If only it was easy to wave a magic MTFU wand and deal with stress in any setting ... never mind the fact that much work related stress is down to bullying and bigoted fools like Shredder and other powerfully built be-goatteed PHers and their misguided attempts at managing people which are in fact nothing more or less than bullying.

[Murph7355]

IroningMan said:

The point is that Stress is a mental illness. The word is devalued in common usage, but the condition is no less serious for it. It's closely related to depression - another devalued term but one that more people recognise.

Much as I dislike swimming against the PH tide, there are an awful lot of 'the answer is MTFU, now what was the question?' posts on this thread. It really shouldn't be necessary to experience mental illness onesself in order to have some empathy with those who do.

I don't think anyone is denying empathy to those with a genuine condition.

But:

(1) the circumstances of absence of those in the original link are fishier than the subject of his being found out and

(2) if one goes into a position knowing what's involved and then cannot cope either one wasn't suited for whatever reason and an employer should not be expected to cover that cost (though arguably they should have been more careful during recruitment) or the position has changed in which case it should be discussed with the employer to see what can be done (difficult in itself if one is in Australia for 2mths wrestling sharks).

[Pothole]

Megaflow said:

Pothole said:

Megaflow said:

Pothole said:

hat crap.

Thanks for the contribution.

What else could I say to your ridiculous statement "wrestling a shark whilst on holiday is not the reaction of a stressed person!"?

How about, "Sorry, I don't agree"

Are you this rude in real life?

Do you think wresting a shark is the sort of thin a stressed person would do? I'd wager they have a split second thought of all of the things that could go wrong, mostly irrational thoughts, because that's what stress does to a person and then ignore the situation.

I appear to be alive, so this is real life. Yes, when I think someone's spouting crap I say so.

Any chance perhaps this chap is a little less stressed than he was having taken the Doctor's advice and gone on holiday to relax, or do you have access to his notes and know his exact state of mind at the time?

I'd say it's pretty rude to fling baseless allegations around if you don't.

[ShredderXLE]

mph1977 said:

Work related stress is a Mental Illness ...

Occupational sick pay is a contractual matter, there is a difference between someone being on Medically certified sick leave and an employer paying them to do so ...

If only it was easy to wave a magic MTFU wand and deal with stress in any setting ... never mind the fact that much work related stress is down to bullying and bigoted fools like Shredder and other powerfully built be-goatteed PHers and their misguided attempts at managing people which are in fact nothing more or less than bullying.

Im hardly a bigot simply because I appear to have a more robust work ethic than you.

And I dont believe that work related stress is a mental illness. Because its curable by finding a less stressful job. Rather than being signed off work the doctor should prescribe finding a new job. They would then allow the employer to hire someone else who may be much better suited for the job. This would make the employer happier because they are not paying someone to sit at home not working. Someone who was previously unemployed would now have a new job and they would be happy. The previously stressed out employee would have now found a new job weaving baskets or something and they would be cured of their work related stress and therefore happy too.

Win win all round I say.


Also please explain what makes me a fool for having an opinion different to you.

Edited by ShredderXLE on Wednesday 13th March 19:51

[mph1977]

ShredderXLE said:

mph1977 said:

Work related stress is a Mental Illness ...

Occupational sick pay is a contractual matter, there is a difference between someone being on Medically certified sick leave and an employer paying them to do so ...

If only it was easy to wave a magic MTFU wand and deal with stress in any setting ... never mind the fact that much work related stress is down to bullying and bigoted fools like Shredder and other powerfully built be-goatteed PHers and their misguided attempts at managing people which are in fact nothing more or less than bullying.

Im hardly a bigot simply because I appear to have a more robust work ethic than you.

ah ad hominems the last resort of the desperate... work ethic has nothing to do with illness physical or mental .. but because you appear to not believe that mental health conditions are illness ...

ShredderXLE said:

And I dont believe that work related stress is a mental illness.

and your GMC number is ? and when did you pass MRCPsych ? or when did you get you DCP and what's your HCPC pin ? or when did you get your post -reg Masters and what's your NMC pin ?

ShredderXLE said:

Because its curable by finding a less stressful job.

and your evidence base for this brave assertion ? given there is plenty of anecdotal and proper evidence that a variety of interventions for stress can and do work and people return to the same job they had before ?

ShredderXLE said:

Rather than being signed off work the doctor should prescribe finding a new job.

why so idiots, bigots and bullies can continue to make the lives of their co-workers and subordinates hell just so they can preen their goatee and show off their powerful build ?

ShredderXLE said:

They would then allow the employer to hire someone else who may be much better suited for the job. This would make the employer happier because they are not paying someone to sit at home not working. Someone who was previously unemployed would now have a new job and they would be happy. The previously stressed out employee would have now found a new job weaving baskets or something and they would be cured of their work related stress and therefore happy too.

Win win all round I say.

Also please explain what makes me a fool for having an opinion different to you.

Edited by ShredderXLE on Wednesday 13th March 19:51

your apparent utter lack of insight, understanding empathy or the realities of managing staff/ business well demonstrate this in abundance.

Edited by mph1977 on Wednesday 13th March 21:23

[JQ]

rpguk said:

Oakey said:

This is the charity in question:

http://www.dowlaisenginehouse.co.uk/

It's not like he was running fking Greenpeace.

Interesting... The charity says the dismissal wasn't to do with the trip to Australia.

Charity Website said:

http://www.dowlaisenginehouse.co.uk/index.php?opt=...

Mr Paul Marshallsea was dismissed for a variety of issues relating to the period leading up to the commencement of his sickness absence in April 2012. None of the issues related to his recent holiday in Australia. The Trustees are not in a position to make any further comment as to do so could involve divulging personal information relating to Mr Marshallsea a former employee

So he's been off since April 2012.

Niiiice.

[singlecoil]

mph1977 said:

ShredderXLE said:

mph1977 said:

Work related stress is a Mental Illness ...

Occupational sick pay is a contractual matter, there is a difference between someone being on Medically certified sick leave and an employer paying them to do so ...

If only it was easy to wave a magic MTFU wand and deal with stress in any setting ... never mind the fact that much work related stress is down to bullying and bigoted fools like Shredder and other powerfully built be-goatteed PHers and their misguided attempts at managing people which are in fact nothing more or less than bullying.

Im hardly a bigot simply because I appear to have a more robust work ethic than you.

ah ad hominems the last resort of the desperate...

Was it you that said "bigoted fools like Shredder" or was that just my imagination? If it was you, then, as it is very much an ad hominem, you are saying you are deperate?

[ShredderXLE]

Ad hominems in my post!??! When you quote your own earlier post accusing me of being a bullying biggoted fool...the irony is strong with this one

[mph1977]

singlecoil said:

mph1977 said:

ShredderXLE said:

mph1977 said:

Work related stress is a Mental Illness ...

Occupational sick pay is a contractual matter, there is a difference between someone being on Medically certified sick leave and an employer paying them to do so ...

If only it was easy to wave a magic MTFU wand and deal with stress in any setting ... never mind the fact that much work related stress is down to bullying and bigoted fools like Shredder and other powerfully built be-goatteed PHers and their misguided attempts at managing people which are in fact nothing more or less than bullying.

Im hardly a bigot simply because I appear to have a more robust work ethic than you.

ah ad hominems the last resort of the desperate...

Was it you that said "bigoted fools like Shredder" or was that just my imagination? If it was you, then, as it is very much an ad hominem, you are saying you are deperate?

despite the bigoted views he expressed ?

also bringing an individual's work ethic into the discussion is irrelevant , where challenging bigotry, discrimination and stigmatising behaviour is relevant to this discussion

[mph1977]

ShredderXLE said:

Ad hominems in my post!??! When you quote your own earlier post accusing me of being a bullying biggoted fool...the irony is strong with this one

you have clearly stated your bigoted views towards "nutters, psychos and mongs" that they should be dismissed without reason or cause and that work related stress is not an illness and that it's all the fault of the weak individual that suffers with it.


questioning my work ethic on the basis that Ii have challenged your evidence free and bigoted views is not relevant to the discussion , therefore is an attempt to attack the individual rather than the views , which fulfils the definition of ad hominem...

[singlecoil]

mph1977 said:

despite the bigoted views he expressed ?

also bringing an individual's work ethic into the discussion is irrelevant , where challenging bigotry, discrimination and stigmatising behaviour is relevant to this discussion

You complain that he used an ad hominem argument on you, despite your having already done the same, and worse, and now it's ok because he deserved it?

Have another

[hairykrishna]

The answer to workplace bullying is not to have a load of time off for stress. That solves fk all. It's to deal with it through the proper channels. Complain via HR and, if that fails, employment tribunal.

[mph1977]

singlecoil said:

mph1977 said:

despite the bigoted views he expressed ?

also bringing an individual's work ethic into the discussion is irrelevant , where challenging bigotry, discrimination and stigmatising behaviour is relevant to this discussion

You complain that he used an ad hominem argument on you, despite your having already done the same, and worse, and now it's ok because he deserved it?

Have another

you quite obviously do not understand what an ad hominem is.

if someone expresses a bigot view calling them a bigot is legitimate .


" you view is invalid because you are ginger" is ad hominem

[singlecoil]

mph1977 said:

you quite obviously do not understand what an ad hominem is.

if someone expresses a bigot view calling them a bigot is legitimate .


" you view is invalid because you are ginger" is ad hominem

Now you are just repeating the ad hominem argument. It's you who has decided that, as you don't agree with him, he is bigoted.

Let me give you a better example. Supposing I was to decide that your argument was stupid. According to you if I was to then call you stupid, that would not be an ad hominem argument. But it would be, because your being stupid would only be my opinion, not an actual fact.

[mph1977]

singlecoil said:

mph1977 said:

you quite obviously do not understand what an ad hominem is.

if someone expresses a bigot view calling them a bigot is legitimate .


" you view is invalid because you are ginger" is ad hominem

Now you are just repeating the ad hominem argument. It's you who has decided that, as you don't agree with him, he is bigoted.

Let me give you a better example. Supposing I was to decide that your argument was stupid. According to you if I was to then call you stupid, that would not be an ad hominem argument. But it would be, because your being stupid would only be my opinion, not an actual fact.

an ad hominem attack attacks the individual not the view they express...

as for understanding of what is and isn't an ad hominem you answer says it all ...

[singlecoil]

mph1977 said:

singlecoil said:

mph1977 said:

you quite obviously do not understand what an ad hominem is.

if someone expresses a bigot view calling them a bigot is legitimate .


" you view is invalid because you are ginger" is ad hominem

Now you are just repeating the ad hominem argument. It's you who has decided that, as you don't agree with him, he is bigoted.

Let me give you a better example. Supposing I was to decide that your argument was stupid. According to you if I was to then call you stupid, that would not be an ad hominem argument. But it would be, because your being stupid would only be my opinion, not an actual fact.

an ad hominem attack attacks the individual not the view they express...

as for understanding of what is and isn't an ad hominem you answer says it all ...

and watch out for those ellipses.

[Megaflow]

Pothole said:

I appear to be alive, so this is real life. Yes, when I think someone's spouting crap I say so.

Any chance perhaps this chap is a little less stressed than he was having taken the Doctor's advice and gone on holiday to relax, or do you have access to his notes and know his exact state of mind at the time?

I'd say it's pretty rude to fling baseless allegations around if you don't.

You seem intent on looking for an argument.

I shall leave to find it elsewhere.