Is the UK tax system day light robbery
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
Falls over all faint!
We have seen plenty of examples of private enterprise "services" (from banks to care homes) fall over and have to be bailed out by government funds.
Having profit motivated entities in place to provide crucial services can backfire massively for all sorts of reasons and can end up costing the taxpayer more money than if the service had been kept in public ownership.
In all honesty Eric, you're becoming irrational.We have seen plenty of examples of private enterprise "services" (from banks to care homes) fall over and have to be bailed out by government funds.
Having profit motivated entities in place to provide crucial services can backfire massively for all sorts of reasons and can end up costing the taxpayer more money than if the service had been kept in public ownership.
The NHS is the finest and biggest example of what you allude to, except of course it isn't Private. It's fallen over and been tumbling down the slope for years now, constantly being bailed out by taxpayers money (the Government as such doesn't have any funds) as many who have needed to call on its 'services' can testify.
There is no doubt that our arcane tax system could be massively simplified and thereby allow lower taxation. The problem is that there is no one in a position of influence without a vested interest in keeping the status quo.
Perhaps vested interests are motivating you today?
Eric Mc said:
RSoovy4 said:
No, I fully feel the need to help those who are less lucky than me. I do feel that I should be able to get a little bit of a discount though given I don't use these services??
Go ahead - work out a system that can equitably calculate the size of discounts for those who profess do not using certain government services. Private healthcare, Mortgage interest, Tuition fees.
If you dont use healthcare, social housing or state education....then you dont pay tax for the amounts you pay privately for healthcare, housing and education.
This has to be done via self assessment with detailed documentation attached so that the payments towards these costs can be vouched and a refund for the tax+NI can be sent to the individual. Administration cost can be worked into existing self assessment admin cost.
Whats the next blockage for tax reform?
REALIST123 said:
In all honesty Eric, you're becoming irrational.
The NHS is the finest and biggest example of what you allude to, except of course it isn't Private. It's fallen over and been tumbling down the slope for years now, constantly being bailed out by taxpayers money (the Government as such doesn't have any funds) as many who have needed to call on its 'services' can testify.
There is no doubt that our arcane tax system could be massively simplified and thereby allow lower taxation. The problem is that there is no one in a position of influence without a vested interest in keeping the status quo.
Perhaps vested interests are motivating you today?
No system is perfect. Some things are better handled in the public sector. Some things are better handled by the private sector.The NHS is the finest and biggest example of what you allude to, except of course it isn't Private. It's fallen over and been tumbling down the slope for years now, constantly being bailed out by taxpayers money (the Government as such doesn't have any funds) as many who have needed to call on its 'services' can testify.
There is no doubt that our arcane tax system could be massively simplified and thereby allow lower taxation. The problem is that there is no one in a position of influence without a vested interest in keeping the status quo.
Perhaps vested interests are motivating you today?
The NHS has its problems - but private healthcare is not perfect either. A mix of both (as we have) is not a bad thing.
And no, I have no vested interest in any public sector areas - apart from wanting this country to remain at least relatively civilised and not degenerate into a country where the weak are pushed to the wall.
bobbylondonuk said:
Eric Mc said:
RSoovy4 said:
No, I fully feel the need to help those who are less lucky than me. I do feel that I should be able to get a little bit of a discount though given I don't use these services??
Go ahead - work out a system that can equitably calculate the size of discounts for those who profess do not using certain government services. Private healthcare, Mortgage interest, Tuition fees.
If you dont use healthcare, social housing or state education....then you dont pay tax for the amounts you pay privately for healthcare, housing and education.
This has to be done via self assessment with detailed documentation attached so that the payments towards these costs can be vouched and a refund for the tax+NI can be sent to the individual. Administration cost can be worked into existing self assessment admin cost.
Whats the next blockage for tax reform?
And you are assuming that you can 100% predict that you or your family don't, won't and will never have the need to use non-private healthcare?
And that you know for certain that you will never have to call on a government provided service.
Surely you are not claiming that you know precisely what your circumstances and state of health are going to be over decades?
Eric Mc said:
No system is perfect. Some things are better handled in the public sector. Some things are better handled by the private sector.
And no, I have no vested interest in any public sector areas - apart from wanting this country to remain at least relatively civilised and not degenerate into a country where the weak are pushed to the wall.
^^^^ ThisAnd no, I have no vested interest in any public sector areas - apart from wanting this country to remain at least relatively civilised and not degenerate into a country where the weak are pushed to the wall.
IATM said:
Hi All
Having just turned the ripe old age of 27...
Just feels like you get shafted left right and centre...... Am I wrong?
no you're not. i think it dawned on me about the same time but it took another 5 years to actually leave. the uk mananges to combine a relatively high tax rate with a relatively low quality of life and as far as i can tell its only going one way...Having just turned the ripe old age of 27...
Just feels like you get shafted left right and centre...... Am I wrong?
Paying tax to sustain the services, etc we all enjoy is one thing......
Paying MORE tax than we need to because the public services are largely mismanaged and generally wasteful with our money is another thing.
The question we should all be asking is;
Why am I paying £10 towards a service, when I could be paying £7 for the same service if it was managed better.
That is where my gripe with the amount of tax we pay comes from.
The biggest example of that is the NHS.
Whilst a great system, it is extremely wasteful, and costs this country far more than it should do!
But again, that is down to the way it is managed. Problem is, no one wants to invest the time and initial expense to get the system sorted out. It is not in the 'Government of the day's' benefit to tackle such a task. Therein lies the problem
Paying MORE tax than we need to because the public services are largely mismanaged and generally wasteful with our money is another thing.
The question we should all be asking is;
Why am I paying £10 towards a service, when I could be paying £7 for the same service if it was managed better.
That is where my gripe with the amount of tax we pay comes from.
The biggest example of that is the NHS.
Whilst a great system, it is extremely wasteful, and costs this country far more than it should do!
But again, that is down to the way it is managed. Problem is, no one wants to invest the time and initial expense to get the system sorted out. It is not in the 'Government of the day's' benefit to tackle such a task. Therein lies the problem
Edited by Spiritual_Beggar on Monday 18th March 15:11
RSoovy4 said:
babatunde said:
Do you think you would have learned to read and write without taxation
Never used the NHS you say
So those inoculations you received as a child were paid for by whom
I'm sure you never want to the dentist as a child also? You
I pay a LOT of tax.Never used the NHS you say
So those inoculations you received as a child were paid for by whom
I'm sure you never want to the dentist as a child also? You
In relation to the above.
1. My son will go to private school which I will pay for, because I want him educated in a school where everyone speaks English as s first language - so I won't use that, but I still have to pay for state schools
2. My family has private health cover which I pay for, but I still have to pay for the state health service
3. My son will not have the MMR, he will have priavte seperate injections, which I will have to pay for, but I still have to....... well you get the picture.
Edited by RSoovy4 on Monday 18th March 09:33
crankedup said:
RSoovy4 said:
babatunde said:
Do you think you would have learned to read and write without taxation
Never used the NHS you say
So those inoculations you received as a child were paid for by whom
I'm sure you never want to the dentist as a child also? You
I pay a LOT of tax.Never used the NHS you say
So those inoculations you received as a child were paid for by whom
I'm sure you never want to the dentist as a child also? You
In relation to the above.
1. My son will go to private school which I will pay for, because I want him educated in a school where everyone speaks English as s first language - so I won't use that, but I still have to pay for state schools
2. My family has private health cover which I pay for, but I still have to pay for the state health service
3. My son will not have the MMR, he will have priavte seperate injections, which I will have to pay for, but I still have to....... well you get the picture.
Edited by RSoovy4 on Monday 18th March 09:33
IATM said:
Each and every person in this country is accountable for their actions, what wrongs they do and more specifically regarding an entity/person running a business they are accountable to ensure they provide the best service value for money service/goods. Why is the government not accountable for providing the services we deserve or pay for.
Who is checking or should be checking that a certain amount of money should be used for roads maintenance, NHS and schools, who is checking that the money is being spent well and we are getting good value for money; who is being held accountable.
The government is very accountable.Who is checking or should be checking that a certain amount of money should be used for roads maintenance, NHS and schools, who is checking that the money is being spent well and we are getting good value for money; who is being held accountable.
On a daily basis the media and opposition parties hold the government to account. On a weekly basis the House of Commons holds the PM to account. Additionally parliamentary select committees hold government ministers and senior civil servants to account. The House of Lords holds the government to account. And best of all, every 5 years, YOU hold the government to account.
fbrs said:
IATM said:
Hi All
Having just turned the ripe old age of 27...
Just feels like you get shafted left right and centre...... Am I wrong?
no you're not. i think it dawned on me about the same time but it took another 5 years to actually leave. the uk mananges to combine a relatively high tax rate with a relatively low quality of life and as far as i can tell its only going one way...Having just turned the ripe old age of 27...
Just feels like you get shafted left right and centre...... Am I wrong?
oyster said:
IATM said:
Each and every person in this country is accountable for their actions, what wrongs they do and more specifically regarding an entity/person running a business they are accountable to ensure they provide the best service value for money service/goods. Why is the government not accountable for providing the services we deserve or pay for.
Who is checking or should be checking that a certain amount of money should be used for roads maintenance, NHS and schools, who is checking that the money is being spent well and we are getting good value for money; who is being held accountable.
The government is very accountable.Who is checking or should be checking that a certain amount of money should be used for roads maintenance, NHS and schools, who is checking that the money is being spent well and we are getting good value for money; who is being held accountable.
On a daily basis the media and opposition parties hold the government to account. On a weekly basis the House of Commons holds the PM to account. Additionally parliamentary select committees hold government ministers and senior civil servants to account. The House of Lords holds the government to account. And best of all, every 5 years, YOU hold the government to account.
The statements on this thread alone state that many of our services can be run better, more efficiently. I can't imagine for one second anyone can 100% say yes they could do it better as none of us have the experience to run a country however managing expenditure a few people I am sure can do very well.
Today I was reading the news and it stated a particular council in spending in excess of 200k to restore some boat that has some historic significance. I am all for history, culture and preserving the history of our country however in this current economy was it vital to start this work now? 200k could have been used to fund local businesses, create 10 jobs, help pensioners pay for their lighting bill, fix the roads that are riddled with pot holes. I am sure if they let the actual item rot for few more years it wouldn't disintegrate into a pile of dust.
Just begs the question - who authorized this, why and how the decision came about that this was the best spend of money for the local/wider community.
Found the article: http://world.topnewstoday.org/world/article/506547...
Spiritual_Beggar said:
Paying tax to sustain the services, etc we all enjoy is one thing......
Paying MORE tax than we need to because the public services are largely mismanaged and generally wasteful with our money is another thing.
The question we should all be asking is;
Why am I paying £10 towards a service, when I could be paying £7 for the same service if it was managed better.
That is where my gripe with the amount of tax we pay comes from.
The biggest example of that is the NHS.
Whilst a great system, it is extremely wasteful, and costs this country far more than it should do!
But again, that is down to the way it is managed. Problem is, no one wants to invest the time and initial expense to get the system sorted out. It is not in the 'Government of the day's' benefit to tackle such a task. Therein lies the problem
Our local Council merged with the neighbouring Council at beginning of last year. Thats a whole raft of Senior Management dispensed with leaving those back room staff more work to complete each week as well.Paying MORE tax than we need to because the public services are largely mismanaged and generally wasteful with our money is another thing.
The question we should all be asking is;
Why am I paying £10 towards a service, when I could be paying £7 for the same service if it was managed better.
That is where my gripe with the amount of tax we pay comes from.
The biggest example of that is the NHS.
Whilst a great system, it is extremely wasteful, and costs this country far more than it should do!
But again, that is down to the way it is managed. Problem is, no one wants to invest the time and initial expense to get the system sorted out. It is not in the 'Government of the day's' benefit to tackle such a task. Therein lies the problem
Edited by Spiritual_Beggar on Monday 18th March 15:11
Our council tax has not risen in three years, except the Parish Council tax increased by a massive 7.3% this year. Services are being cut, you cannot contact any council staff after Friday 5.00pm until Monday 9.00am. The Council wouldn't pump out the flood water threatening my home
public toilets in nearby tourist town are closed down, roads remain unswept except in tourist town, local library books are so old they form an historical database. On the other hand we have a great local Doctors Surgery, which I have to use a lot, an ambulance at the other end of the telephone (East of England not meeting targets though)a fresh crop of nurses from abroad taking up vacancies in local hospital. Relative to income we pay a shed load of tax for even less facilities than townies.Spiritual_Beggar said:
The biggest example of that is the NHS.
Whilst a great system, it is extremely wasteful, and costs this country far more than it should do!
I'm sure there's plenty of areas it could be less wasteful, but while it is expensive it compares pretty well, globally.Whilst a great system, it is extremely wasteful, and costs this country far more than it should do!
Edited by Spiritual_Beggar on Monday 18th March 15:11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_...
User33678888 said:
Would you be in the position to be starting a company without the free education and healthcare you have benefited from over the last 27 years?
Free!! whats free about it???As an aside i suggest that people who question the taxes we pay visit countries where tax collection is inefficient and or almost non existant, where for any government employee the height of attainment is how much he can screw from backhanders and such like.
Edited by SLCZ3 on Monday 18th March 16:30
Eric Mc said:
bobbylondonuk said:
Eric Mc said:
RSoovy4 said:
No, I fully feel the need to help those who are less lucky than me. I do feel that I should be able to get a little bit of a discount though given I don't use these services??
Go ahead - work out a system that can equitably calculate the size of discounts for those who profess do not using certain government services. Private healthcare, Mortgage interest, Tuition fees.
If you dont use healthcare, social housing or state education....then you dont pay tax for the amounts you pay privately for healthcare, housing and education.
This has to be done via self assessment with detailed documentation attached so that the payments towards these costs can be vouched and a refund for the tax+NI can be sent to the individual. Administration cost can be worked into existing self assessment admin cost.
Whats the next blockage for tax reform?
And you are assuming that you can 100% predict that you or your family don't, won't and will never have the need to use non-private healthcare?
And that you know for certain that you will never have to call on a government provided service.
Surely you are not claiming that you know precisely what your circumstances and state of health are going to be over decades?
If you read my reply above, you should note that it is not an advance tax relief. It is a relief given for payments made in the previous tax year...supported by documentation. So in 12/13 my pay would be taxed as normal....and in january 14 I would claim relief on payments made towards private health, housing and education in 12/13. tax deducted at source and refunded for payments submitted with proof. At any given year...tax would be deducted for the public services in advance.
JREwing said:
The situation here really is no worse than most developed countries, and better than most less developed countries.
If anything, compared to most of Europe (particularly north west) we pay remarkably little.
Not sure if serious.If anything, compared to most of Europe (particularly north west) we pay remarkably little.
Income tax, NI, council tax, road tax, VAT, fuel duty, TV licence, insurance premium tax, airline ticket tax etc etc, the list is extensive.
El Guapo said:
Not sure if serious.
Income tax, NI, council tax, road tax, VAT, fuel duty, TV licence, insurance premium tax, airline ticket tax etc etc, the list is extensive.
Nice to be able to buy your own house, send your kids to schools equipping them for a high standard of education, nice to be able to afford new cars on cheap finance. Nice that most people have the latest mobiles, plasmas and Internet connections. Great to receive the latest screening for cancer, brain and heart surgery procedures. Great to even get access to a doctor almost the same day within 5 miles of your house. Nice that our insurance and police protect us from personal loss and extortion. Income tax, NI, council tax, road tax, VAT, fuel duty, TV licence, insurance premium tax, airline ticket tax etc etc, the list is extensive.
But of course it all comes at a price
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