Uk Council tax,. Reform. Needed?
Discussion
Roman Rhodes said:
your property valuation is at least c. 3x that of your neighbour. Doesn’t seem a bad deal?
I think we have established that council tax pays for services - and it is the case that low consumers of these services pay more for them. The justification is, er, because they should, it's fair. It's not 'eating me up' - but it is interesting that net contributors are always being asked to pay more by those that don't wish to.
Integroo said:
selmahoose]ntegroo said:
Yes it should be reformed. It is meant to be in line with property prices - it isn't. Owners should pay, not tenants. /quote]
Why shouldn’t tenants pay towards the local services they use?
Landlords tend to be wealthier than renters. It is not only the tenant that benefits from things like the fire service - the landlord also doesn't want their property to burn down. Landlords can pass the council tax burden to their tenants through increased rents, though evidence suggests that they wouldn't be able to pass it all down. Why shouldn’t tenants pay towards the local services they use?
Edited by Integroo on Monday 18th February 09:57
Integroo said:
I dispute the large number of penniless pensioners living in million pound houses, but leaving that aside, the proposed solution is it is rolled up each year (based on its value that year) and paid out of her estate on death.
The problem with some is that the million pound house is a paper fortune until it is realised.A pensioner paying £13-25k a year council tax is beyond ridiculous, some may not even have a pension paying that.
NDA said:
I think we have established that council tax pays for services - and it is the case that low consumers of these services pay more for them. The justification is, er, because they should, it's fair.
It's not 'eating me up' - but it is interesting that net contributors are always being asked to pay more by those that don't wish to.
I am a net contributor. I think I should pay more income tax. It's not 'eating me up' - but it is interesting that net contributors are always being asked to pay more by those that don't wish to.
Your main gripe is it's "unfair". Say we cut council tax in half. What would you do with the £1000 a year or so you save?
Zoon said:
Integroo said:
I dispute the large number of penniless pensioners living in million pound houses, but leaving that aside, the proposed solution is it is rolled up each year (based on its value that year) and paid out of her estate on death.
The problem with some is that the million pound house is a paper fortune until it is realised.A pensioner paying £13-25k a year council tax is beyond ridiculous, some may not even have a pension paying that.
The problem of the penniless destitute pensioner in a million pound house is a red herring though - there are so few as to make it unimportant in considering the application of land value tax as a whole.
Integroo said:
She can realise it by selling her house. If she doesn't want to, the proposed solution is that it is rolled up and paid for on death.
The problem of the penniless destitute pensioner in a million pound house is a red herring though - there are so few as to make it unimportant in considering the application of land value tax as a whole.
Just because someone can afford to do something does not mean that it is fair.The problem of the penniless destitute pensioner in a million pound house is a red herring though - there are so few as to make it unimportant in considering the application of land value tax as a whole.
selmahoose said:
Integroo said:
selmahoose]ntegroo said:
Yes it should be reformed. It is meant to be in line with property prices - it isn't. Owners should pay, not tenants. /quote]
Why shouldn’t tenants pay towards the local services they use?
Landlords tend to be wealthier than renters. It is not only the tenant that benefits from things like the fire service - the landlord also doesn't want their property to burn down. Landlords can pass the council tax burden to their tenants through increased rents, though evidence suggests that they wouldn't be able to pass it all down. Why shouldn’t tenants pay towards the local services they use?
Edited by Integroo on Monday 18th February 09:57
House value is a rubbish proxy for ability to pay.
The provision made for relating contribution to number of contributors (the 25% single occupant discount) is inadequate.
The principle in the community charge of relating local tax contribution to individuals rather than houses was correct. The lack of consideration (there was some) of ability to pay was a mistake.
The provision made for relating contribution to number of contributors (the 25% single occupant discount) is inadequate.
The principle in the community charge of relating local tax contribution to individuals rather than houses was correct. The lack of consideration (there was some) of ability to pay was a mistake.
Integroo said:
I am a net contributor. I think I should pay more income tax.
Your main gripe is it's "unfair". Say we cut council tax in half. What would you do with the £1000 a year or so you save?
Spend it locally - put the cash directly in the pockets of local shop owners and tradesmen. Rather than have it frittered away by the swivel-eyed loons that run the council.Your main gripe is it's "unfair". Say we cut council tax in half. What would you do with the £1000 a year or so you save?
Integroo said:
The problem of the penniless destitute pensioner in a million pound house is a red herring though - there are so few as to make it unimportant in considering the application of land value tax as a whole.
You’re soon moving to London. Think you’re going to get quite a surprise by the number of cash poor people in million pound houses who really can’t afford to pay a huge annual property tax. You’ll also encounter many a high earner living in rented accommodation who would contribute zero to local costs under LVT.Integroo said:
Welshbeef said:
Yet it’s not.
Plenty of places modest 3 bed semis are &1m or there about. Loved there all their lives paid mortgage off 30 years++ ago. They have state pension plus work pension but it’s really not a lot they cannot afford overseas annual holidays.
Now lump on £20-50k annual extra land tax... where does that come from? Also they would be fire selling too to meet the tax deadline an the purchaser might really think twice about it.
Imagine the prospect that the govt had decided Dorris house was a £1m pad so £25k a year. But when it sells (to fund the tax) it’s actually £670k or less taking it below the govt banding... does Dorris then sell or challenge the govt that her house isn’t a £1m that the govt said it was
I dispute the large number of penniless pensioners living in million pound houses, but leaving that aside, the proposed solution is it is rolled up each year (based on its value that year) and paid out of her estate on death.Plenty of places modest 3 bed semis are &1m or there about. Loved there all their lives paid mortgage off 30 years++ ago. They have state pension plus work pension but it’s really not a lot they cannot afford overseas annual holidays.
Now lump on £20-50k annual extra land tax... where does that come from? Also they would be fire selling too to meet the tax deadline an the purchaser might really think twice about it.
Imagine the prospect that the govt had decided Dorris house was a £1m pad so £25k a year. But when it sells (to fund the tax) it’s actually £670k or less taking it below the govt banding... does Dorris then sell or challenge the govt that her house isn’t a £1m that the govt said it was
t say the PH hard-nuts) or benefitted massively from house price inflation in London and the South East through no effort of their own. In 99.9% of cases it will be the latter and the number of cases will be tiny - why should a system cater for a tiny number of outliers?Integroo said:
What is more likely is it pushes parasitic landlords out of the market, reducing property prices and reducing rental demand as more people can afford to buy.
Nope that’s just speculation. What’s certain is that LVT will create a new layer of parasite called “tenant” who enjoy local amenities they don’t pay for (which is ridiculous and unacceptable)selmahoose said:
You’re soon moving to London. Think you’re going to get quite a surprise by the number of cash poor people in million pound houses who really can’t afford to pay a huge annual property tax. You’ll also encounter many a high earner living in rented accommodation who would contribute zero to local costs under LVT.
Quite frankly, if the only reason they live in this million pound house is because of benefiting from massive value inflation, I don't feel too much sympathy for them. Sell and move. Yes, but it should push house prices back down to more reasonable levels. The problem is that someone on £100k in London cannot get a mortgage to buy a one bed flat in most parts of Zone 1 or 2. That's a pretty ridiculous situation.
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