Bianca Williams stop accusing race motivated.

[wjb]

Pothole said:

I find this very concerning. How recently?

Ages ago, thankfully.

I can't see much has changed though unfortunately, other than being slightly more subtle.

[eldar]

wjb said:

Ages ago, thankfully.

I can't see much has changed though unfortunately, other than being slightly more subtle.

Do you really think society values, including the police haven’t changed in the last 30 years?

[Bigends]

Greendubber said:

Drive on wrong side of the road, make off from police and then moan about it when they want you quite lawfully out if the vehicle to search you.

Absolute melts.

..and the grounds for that weapons search were?? Suppose thatll only come out when the complaints investigated. Does driving on the wrong side of the road warrant the search? A breath test maybe

Edited by Bigends on Monday 6th July 18:07

[Pothole]

wjb said:

Ages ago, thankfully.

I can't see much has changed though unfortunately, other than being slightly more subtle.

Presumably you haven't changed ethnicity. When was the last time you were stopped?

[jsc15]

wjb said:

Pothole said:

I find this very concerning. How recently?

Ages ago, thankfully.

I can't see much has changed though unfortunately, other than being slightly more subtle.

wjb.....This is the kind of stuff that needs backed up by actual facts

You can't assert that the cops are all (in 2020) racist, n-word users, telling black people to "go back home", and you can't use this to justify aggression of black suspects (innocent or not) towards police.

Basically, it's not *always* someone else's fault

Black people can be stopped for numerous reasons other than just the fact they are black, and they don't always do themselves any favours before or after the stop by playing the race card and refusing to take any personal responsibility for their actions in these cases

[Greendubber]

Bigends said:

Greendubber said:

Drive on wrong side of the road, make off from police and then moan about it when they want you quite lawfully out if the vehicle to search you.

Absolute melts.

..and the grounds for that weapons search were?? Suppose thatll only come out when the complaints investigated

Based on the fact it's already been looked into and its found to be absolutley fine this is clearly someone who has an agenda. If a car makes off then there are reasonable grounds to suspect its stolen, there are drugs, wanted people, weapons or other prohibited items within it.

Linford Christie openly accused those officers of being racist. There isn't a hint of racism about this incident, maybe hes got beef as his drug dealing son is banged up for drug supply or maybe because he got potted himself for st driving not so long ago.

Who knows, but its fashionable to scream about the police doing their job at the moment I suppose.

[wjb]

eldar said:

Do you really think society values, including the police haven’t changed in the last 30 years?

Society yes of course.

Police, on the face of it yes, but nowhere near enough and like I say, it's just less overt now.

[wjb]

jsc15 said:

wjb said:

Pothole said:

I find this very concerning. How recently?

Ages ago, thankfully.

I can't see much has changed though unfortunately, other than being slightly more subtle.

wjb.....This is the kind of stuff that needs backed up by actual facts

You can't assert that the cops are all (in 2020) racist, n-word users, telling black people to "go back home", and you can't use this to justify aggression of black suspects (innocent or not) towards police.

Basically, it's not *always* someone else's fault

Black people can be stopped for numerous reasons other than just the fact they are black, and they don't always do themselves any favours before or after the stop by playing the race card and refusing to take any personal responsibility for their actions in these cases

What "facts" can I give you?

None.

I've never justified any aggression, by black people or otherwise, towards the police.

I never said "all" cops are racist, I know a few personally (believe it or not), and I'd never say that about them. But there's a massive problem with racism in the police, you can't deny that.

Or maybe you can, and if that's the case, which I assume it is judging by your posts, then I suppose we're done here

[Greendubber]

wjb said:

jsc15 said:

wjb said:

Pothole said:

I find this very concerning. How recently?

Ages ago, thankfully.

I can't see much has changed though unfortunately, other than being slightly more subtle.

wjb.....This is the kind of stuff that needs backed up by actual facts

You can't assert that the cops are all (in 2020) racist, n-word users, telling black people to "go back home", and you can't use this to justify aggression of black suspects (innocent or not) towards police.

Basically, it's not *always* someone else's fault

Black people can be stopped for numerous reasons other than just the fact they are black, and they don't always do themselves any favours before or after the stop by playing the race card and refusing to take any personal responsibility for their actions in these cases

What "facts" can I give you?

None.

I've never justified any aggression, by black people or otherwise, towards the police.

I never said "all" cops are racist, I know a few personally (believe it or not), and I'd never say that about them. But there's a massive problem with racism in the police, you can't deny that.

Or maybe you can, and if that's the case, which I assume it is judging by your posts, then I suppose we're done here

What do your police mates think about your claim about there being a massive problem with racism?

I've been police for over 13 years and never seen this massive problem, the industries I worked in previously though....

[bitchstewie]

Is the Met larger than other forces?

It may be a perception thing but whenever I see allegations like this it almost always seems to involve the Met Police.

[anonymous-user]

One of the fundamental issues the police face is that black men commit a disproportionate (and grossly so for some crime types) amount of crime, so by default there are a disproportionate amount of interactions.

That's always going to create tensions regardless of anything else.

I'd be surprised in 2020 if there's overt racism like in the 'bad old days'.

I think the key is making sure there is training / awareness of subconscious bias and judgement. More subtle and not intentional prejudices.

wjb said:

I never said "all" cops are racist, I know a few personally (believe it or not), and I'd never say that about them. But there's a massive problem with racism in the police, you can't deny that.

I genuinely don't believe that is the case from what I saw.

Look at the CSE scandal. Part of that was the police (and other authorities) being so scared to be labelled as racists they didn't deal with that needed dealing with.

bhstewie said:

Is the Met larger than other forces?

It may be a perception thing but whenever I see allegations like this it almost always seems to involve the Met Police.

Much larger. 1 in 4 police officers is in the Met (England and Wales).

[vonhosen]

bhstewie said:

Is the Met larger than other forces?

It may be a perception thing but whenever I see allegations like this it almost always seems to involve the Met Police.

Nearly a quarter of all Police in England & Wales are in the Met.

[DeWar]

La Liga said:

One of the fundamental issues the police face is that black men commit a disproportionate (and grossly so for some crime types) amount of crime, so by default there are a disproportionate amount of interactions.

That's always going to create tensions regardless of anything else.

I'd be surprised in 2020 if there's overt racism like in the 'bad old days'.

I think the key is making sure there is training / awareness of subconscious bias and judgement. More subtle and not intentional prejudices.

Black men commit a disproportionate amount of recorded crime.

That may appear pedantic, and it may well be true that black people do commit more actual crime in some categories (not, I hasten to add, because they’re black, of course) but there is a vicious cycle here: black men are perceived to commit more crime therefore the police will seemingly legitimately stop and search them more. Because of that, they simply catch a higher proportion of black criminals than white criminals. How many people here have had a car nicked or a house burgled? How often were the perps caught?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44884113

This article suggests 9 out of 10 crimes go unsolved. I’m not sure referencing crime figures informs this debate very much.

[voyds9]

wjb said:

I wonder how some of you guys would react if you'd been stopped, 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 times for no reason other than being black in a public place....

Would you all remain civilised, polite and calm?

Genuine question.

I'd move to Soweto

[jsc15]

If only there was a way to explain why black people are so unjustly stopped/arrested/prosecuted?

I've previously attempted to highlight on PH that the obvious (really obvious) reason black men are stopped by police slightly more is that they are *multiple* times times more likely to be engaged in serious criminality, but I just get the standard "f-in racist pr**k" type retorts.

So, here is another attempt.....namely the wikipedia page on "Race and crime in the United Kingdom" located at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_th...
I know some of it looks dated, but let's be honest, things haven't improved


Here's the full "History" section from that page...

In 2003 Lee Jasper, a race advisor to the London mayor, said drugs and gun crime were the "biggest threat to the black community since its arrival here".[4]

In 2007, after a series of murders committed by black people, prime minister Tony Blair attributed them to a distinctive black culture: "the black community (...) need to be mobilised in denunciation of this gang culture that is killing innocent young black kids. But we won't stop this by pretending it isn't young black kids doing it."[5] Some from the black community criticised his remarks.[6]

Gang involvement is said to be a "continuing problem" in the community.[7] African-Caribbean people are over represented in violent crimes.[8]

Some commentators have argued that the issue of black people and crime is hidden away or downplayed, and that the fear of accusations of racism may have contributed to this.[9][10]

The Metropolitan Police Service is one of the few police forces which has collected statistics on gang rape. Filmmaker Sorious Samura compiled 29 such incidents involving young people from January 2006 to March 2009, and found that, of 92 people convicted, 66 were black or mixed race. Samura said he found it "impossible to ignore the fact that such a high proportion were committed by black and mixed-race young men"



....and as a copy'n'paste from the "Race and crime in London" section (remember this is just the "B" of "BAME")

Figures from the Office for National Statistics showed that in 2007 an estimated 10.6 percent of London's population of 7,556,900 were black.[24] Evidence shows that the black population in London boroughs increases with the level of deprivation, and that the level of crime also increases with deprivation, such that "It is clear that ethnicity, deprivation, victimisation and offending are closely and intricately inter-related".[25]

In June 2010, through a Freedom of Information Act request, The Sunday Telegraph obtained statistics on accusations of crime broken down by race from the Metropolitan Police Service.[n 2] The figures showed that the majority of males who were accused of violent crimes in 2009–2010 were black. Of the recorded 18,091 such accusations against males, 54 percent accused of street crimes were black; for robbery, 58 percent; and for gun crimes, 67 percent.[26] Robbery, drug use, and gang violence have been associated with black people since the 1960s.[27] In the 1980s and 1990s, the police associated robbery with black people. In 1995, the Metropolitan Police commissioner Paul Condon said that the majority of robberies in London were committed by black people.[28]

Street crimes include muggings, assault with intent to rob, and snatching property. Black males accounted for 29 percent of the male victims of gun crime and 24 percent of the male victims of knife crime.[26] Of sex offences, black men made up 32 per cent of male suspects. Similar statistics were recorded for females. Of knife crime, 45 percent of suspected female perpetrators were black; for gun crime, 58 percent; and of robberies, 52 percent.[29]

Operation Trident was set up in March 1998 by the Metropolitan Police to investigate gun crime in London's black community after black-on-black shootings in Lambeth and Brent.[30]

Between April 2005 and January 2006, figures from the Metropolitan Police Service showed that black people accounted for 46 percent of car-crime arrests generated by automatic number plate recognition cameras.

[bitchstewie]

voyds9 said:

wjb said:

I wonder how some of you guys would react if you'd been stopped, 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 times for no reason other than being black in a public place....

Would you all remain civilised, polite and calm?

Genuine question.

I'd move to Soweto

[voyds9]

bhstewie said:

voyds9 said:

wjb said:

I wonder how some of you guys would react if you'd been stopped, 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 times for no reason other than being black in a public place....

Would you all remain civilised, polite and calm?

Genuine question.

I'd move to Soweto

Would be unlike to be the colour of skin for the next stop

[wjb]

voyds9 said:

bhstewie said:

voyds9 said:

wjb said:

I wonder how some of you guys would react if you'd been stopped, 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 times for no reason other than being black in a public place....

Would you all remain civilised, polite and calm?

Genuine question.

I'd move to Soweto

Would be unlike to be the colour of skin for the next stop

Ahhh, the 2020 version of "go back to your own country"

I get it, thanks, not "from" Soweto though.

Are other countries available?

[Bigends]

DeWar said:

La Liga said:

One of the fundamental issues the police face is that black men commit a disproportionate (and grossly so for some crime types) amount of crime, so by default there are a disproportionate amount of interactions.

That's always going to create tensions regardless of anything else.

I'd be surprised in 2020 if there's overt racism like in the 'bad old days'.

I think the key is making sure there is training / awareness of subconscious bias and judgement. More subtle and not intentional prejudices.

Black men commit a disproportionate amount of recorded crime.

That may appear pedantic, and it may well be true that black people do commit more actual crime in some categories (not, I hasten to add, because they’re black, of course) but there is a vicious cycle here: black men are perceived to commit more crime therefore the police will seemingly legitimately stop and search them more. Because of that, they simply catch a higher proportion of black criminals than white criminals. How many people here have had a car nicked or a house burgled? How often were the perps caught?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44884113

This article suggests 9 out of 10 crimes go unsolved. I’m not sure referencing crime figures informs this debate very much.

Only 30% of all stop searches have recently resulted in positive outcomes - charge / caution, Ticket etc. In the Met, 60% of those outcomes were for drugs, 11% to theft / counterfeit offences and 9% for weapons

[bitchstewie]

voyds9 said:

bhstewie said:

voyds9 said:

wjb said:

I wonder how some of you guys would react if you'd been stopped, 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 times for no reason other than being black in a public place....

Would you all remain civilised, polite and calm?

Genuine question.

I'd move to Soweto

Would be unlike to be the colour of skin for the next stop

I'm afraid I still don't understand what Soweto has to do with anything?