Jon Venables back in prison

[FarleyRusk]

freecar said:

I love the warm sense of community that can be felt here at pistonheads. Where a crowd can ignorantly bay for blood like savages yet condemn the same savage behaviour.

Parents, do one thing for me.

Abuse your children, treat them with contempt, never be proud of them for anything. beat them when you feel like hurting something and put lit cigarettes out on them for fun.

Now don't feed them properly, get them drunk and beat them when they are sick, make sure they have no possessions of their own and that they know that they are possessions of yours, that you don't care about.

Now, dominate every aspect of their lives, prevent them from going to school or make them go in dirty, smelly clothes. Make sure they don't have any friends that they want, choose their friends for them, ones that they can get to shoplift for you. Make them watch terrifying films and create an environment of fear and swift reprisals.


After doing all that see what they're capable of.

Amazing how easy it is to "break" a child.

So its always nurture and never nature then? What if you're wrong and supporting the release of simply bad people into society. Bet thats a risk you'd be prepared to take, isn't it?

If it is nurture, then once a kid has been programmed to the stage of torturing and murdering then there's no turning back. Life imprisonment to protect society acceptable under these circumstances too. Shame for the kid.

[FarleyRusk]

Parrot of Doom said:

FarleyRusk said:

catso said:

Freaking sick basturd should be put out of our misery along with his sick accomplice.

If they'd done that to one of my kids I would make it my life's mission to end them, no matter the cost...

Agreed. My youngest lad will be 3 in May. The reality is that your remaining family would need you to be around so ending up in jail for murder yourself wouldn't help anyone in the end

I'd also be quite happy to (theoretically) string up all the fking limp-wristed do-gooders who want to give child-torturing murderers a chance even after the likes of Thompson and Venabales have clearly proved what unacceptably evil fkers they are. What the hell is wrong with some people? In my world a 10 year old doesn't torture and murder a toddler and then get to see the light of day again let alone an all expenses-paid trip to Australia to go and hide himself away. That's the best I can do for a post-midnight rant.

Better hope that your 3-year-old doesn't murder anyone in 7 years time then. Just imagine, all these lovely people on this thread wanting to see him hanging from a rope.

Just imagine that.

If he did something like that then he'll have to face the consequences by himself. That's your weak argument fked up isn't it?

[Halb]

Parrot of Doom said:

FarleyRusk said:

catso said:

Freaking sick basturd should be put out of our misery along with his sick accomplice.

If they'd done that to one of my kids I would make it my life's mission to end them, no matter the cost...

Agreed. My youngest lad will be 3 in May. The reality is that your remaining family would need you to be around so ending up in jail for murder yourself wouldn't help anyone in the end

I'd also be quite happy to (theoretically) string up all the fking limp-wristed do-gooders who want to give child-torturing murderers a chance even after the likes of Thompson and Venabales have clearly proved what unacceptably evil fkers they are. What the hell is wrong with some people? In my world a 10 year old doesn't torture and murder a toddler and then get to see the light of day again let alone an all expenses-paid trip to Australia to go and hide himself away. That's the best I can do for a post-midnight rant.

Better hope that your 3-year-old doesn't murder anyone in 7 years time then. Just imagine, all these lovely people on this thread wanting to see him hanging from a rope.

Just imagine that.

Better to hope that his 3 year old isn't attacked by some other 10 year old because then the 10 year old will get 10 years in prison and a new identity? If he brings his child up well then chances are he won't have to fear the former.

[freecar]

FarleyRusk said:

freecar said:

I love the warm sense of community that can be felt here at pistonheads. Where a crowd can ignorantly bay for blood like savages yet condemn the same savage behaviour.

Parents, do one thing for me.

Abuse your children, treat them with contempt, never be proud of them for anything. beat them when you feel like hurting something and put lit cigarettes out on them for fun.

Now don't feed them properly, get them drunk and beat them when they are sick, make sure they have no possessions of their own and that they know that they are possessions of yours, that you don't care about.

Now, dominate every aspect of their lives, prevent them from going to school or make them go in dirty, smelly clothes. Make sure they don't have any friends that they want, choose their friends for them, ones that they can get to shoplift for you. Make them watch terrifying films and create an environment of fear and swift reprisals.


After doing all that see what they're capable of.

Amazing how easy it is to "break" a child.

So its always nurture and never nature then? What if you're wrong and supporting the release of simply bad people into society. Bet thats a risk you'd be prepared to take, isn't it?

If it is nurture, then once a kid has been programmed to the stage of torturing and murdering then there's no turning back. Life imprisonment to protect society acceptable under these circumstances too. Shame for the kid.

As that was my first post on this thread I think you jumped the gun a little and prejudged my position.

I was merely pointing out that children are fragile and as 10ps says, to judge adults by what they did as children is not necessarily the best thing to do.

As a kid growing up I had no clue as to what a cruel deprived upbringing can do. I knew a few kids from homes that were less than ideal. These people took longer to "find their feet" in the real world, their parents hadn't given them the tools to believe in themselves and thus they were not as well developed than those of us from loving families. Eventually though we reach the stage I am at and you'd be hard pushed to tell the difference between myself and friends that didn't have the best start.

From my own (anecdotal and therefore useless) experience I would say that nurture has a lot to do with how you turn out but you can recover from poor nurturing. I also believe that to recover from the bad lessons takes twice as long as if you had learnt it correctly in the first place, I feel that you need time to "unlearn" bad habits and learn good ones.

However as I am not a psychiatric doctor nor a psychotherapist and given that I have had no contact with either boy I can't categorically state that they are beyond help or rehabilitated. I have to do the only logical thing for a civilised society and that is to trust those who have been put into positions to evaluate and decide the best course of action for the boys. (although with the shower of ste we have in parliament I can't say that my faith is particularily strong)

What I am not going to do is join the legions of fkwits who feel that as they've seen a couple of tabloid reports about it and spoke to a bloke down the pub, that they are in a position to judge the mental states of these two individuals and their likelihood of reoffending.

You can flame me for all you're worth. I know I am right and many of you are only a hairs breadth from the sort of awful violence that saw these two imprisoned in the first place.

The funny thing is there were more people willing to defend the convicted paedophile (had sex with a 24 month old!) who was banged up for causing the death of baby p than there are of two "child-killers" Yet that man was an adult.

Had the two boys both come from good homes with loving parents and stable relationships then I would feel a little better about condemning them. But having not been treated like that in my childhood I can't possibly contemplate what horrific acts I would have been capable of.

[FarleyRusk]

Nice post freecar

I don't have any faith in psychobabble experts to make any such judgements on fitness to be returned to society. Psychology isn't a science and all the people I've ever met from that field were crackers. Which explains why they often get such decisions wrong. If you torture and murder a child then there should be segregation not lovey dovey maybe / could-be solutions that put innocent members of society at risk.

[thinfourth2]

freecar said:

I love the warm sense of community that can be felt here at pistonheads. Where a crowd can ignorantly bay for blood like savages yet condemn the same savage behaviour.

Parents, do one thing for me.

Abuse your children, treat them with contempt, never be proud of them for anything. beat them when you feel like hurting something and put lit cigarettes out on them for fun.

Now don't feed them properly, get them drunk and beat them when they are sick, make sure they have no possessions of their own and that they know that they are possessions of yours, that you don't care about.

Now, dominate every aspect of their lives, prevent them from going to school or make them go in dirty, smelly clothes. Make sure they don't have any friends that they want, choose their friends for them, ones that they can get to shoplift for you. Make them watch terrifying films and create an environment of fear and swift reprisals.


After doing all that see what they're capable of.

Amazing how easy it is to "break" a child.

Then maybe we should remove bad parents from society

Step 1 is stop children being a cash crop

[tangent police]

FarleyRusk said:

Nice post freecar

I don't have any faith in psychobabble experts to make any such judgements on fitness to be returned to society. Psychology isn't a science and all the people I've ever met from that field were crackers. Which explains why they often get such decisions wrong. If you torture and murder a child then there should be segregation not lovey dovey maybe / could-be solutions that put innocent members of society at risk.

Whilst psychology isn't an exact science, there are some surprisingly good models which explain and predict people's behaviour. A lot of these are based on physiology. In a lot of cases, these models work. It isn't some sort of astrology nonsense.

It's popular dogma to say "they're all mad" and "psychobabble". It shows a closed mind, as well as a degree of ignorance.

I agree that there is a degree of speculation in certain cases, but humans are no different from every other natural phenomena, their behaviour is predictable, understandable and in some cases modifiable by various inputs. Perhaps if prison was more like "The Clockwork Orange", we might see some good, proper behaviourism applied!

I wonder whether psychology offends people's sense of self.

Anyway, tangent off.

[Wings]

As a buddhist monk once said “give me a child until they are 7, and then I will give you an adult back”. By that the monk was saying that a child’s adult character is set by the time they reach 7 years, and what damage has been done to their minds, is set in them for life.

Possibly both Venables and Thomson are very sick and damaged human beings, perhaps the same accounting for their uncontrollable tantrums during their early days of imprisonment.

[FarleyRusk]

tangent police said:

FarleyRusk said:

Nice post freecar

I don't have any faith in psychobabble experts to make any such judgements on fitness to be returned to society. Psychology isn't a science and all the people I've ever met from that field were crackers. Which explains why they often get such decisions wrong. If you torture and murder a child then there should be segregation not lovey dovey maybe / could-be solutions that put innocent members of society at risk.

Whilst psychology isn't an exact science, there are some surprisingly good models which explain and predict people's behaviour. A lot of these are based on physiology. In a lot of cases, these models work. It isn't some sort of astrology nonsense.

It's popular dogma to say "they're all mad" and "psychobabble". It shows a closed mind, as well as a degree of ignorance.

I agree that there is a degree of speculation in certain cases, but humans are no different from every other natural phenomena, their behaviour is predictable, understandable and in some cases modifiable by various inputs. Perhaps if prison was more like "The Clockwork Orange", we might see some good, proper behaviourism applied!

I wonder whether psychology offends people's sense of self.

Anyway, tangent off.

My anecdotal evidence from 5 shrinks that I have met (in a social capacity) is that they are all maladjusted and most-certainly nuts. That's probably not a statistically significent sample nor a professional 'diagnosis', but its all I have to go on. And I that makes me ignorant in your book then so be it. I did like your vague asertion that "In a lot of cases, these models work". Well that's not really enough to let a toddler-torturing killer free is it? Such a cruel fker doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. The victim was never afforded such decency. Perhaps you'd volunteer to have all such released psychopaths to come and live in your street? After all 'scientists' have pronounced them safe to live in society... Thought not.

[micky g]

freecar said:

Lots of stuff that made sense.

You can't just come on here and here and post rational comments you know, you'll get this site a bad reputation.

Very well said btw...

[Parrot of Doom]

FarleyRusk said:

Parrot of Doom said:

FarleyRusk said:

catso said:

Freaking sick basturd should be put out of our misery along with his sick accomplice.

If they'd done that to one of my kids I would make it my life's mission to end them, no matter the cost...

Agreed. My youngest lad will be 3 in May. The reality is that your remaining family would need you to be around so ending up in jail for murder yourself wouldn't help anyone in the end

I'd also be quite happy to (theoretically) string up all the fking limp-wristed do-gooders who want to give child-torturing murderers a chance even after the likes of Thompson and Venabales have clearly proved what unacceptably evil fkers they are. What the hell is wrong with some people? In my world a 10 year old doesn't torture and murder a toddler and then get to see the light of day again let alone an all expenses-paid trip to Australia to go and hide himself away. That's the best I can do for a post-midnight rant.

Better hope that your 3-year-old doesn't murder anyone in 7 years time then. Just imagine, all these lovely people on this thread wanting to see him hanging from a rope.

Just imagine that.

If he did something like that then he'll have to face the consequences by himself. That's your weak argument fked up isn't it?

I see, emotion is just a switch you can turn off at any time, is it?

Funny how you're happy to commit violent acts against those people who have the intelligence to see beyond simple tabloid headlines and determine the root cause of such things. Perhaps you don't understand the concept of irony.

[Parrot of Doom]

freecar said:

FarleyRusk said:

freecar said:

I love the warm sense of community that can be felt here at pistonheads. Where a crowd can ignorantly bay for blood like savages yet condemn the same savage behaviour.

Parents, do one thing for me.

Abuse your children, treat them with contempt, never be proud of them for anything. beat them when you feel like hurting something and put lit cigarettes out on them for fun.

Now don't feed them properly, get them drunk and beat them when they are sick, make sure they have no possessions of their own and that they know that they are possessions of yours, that you don't care about.

Now, dominate every aspect of their lives, prevent them from going to school or make them go in dirty, smelly clothes. Make sure they don't have any friends that they want, choose their friends for them, ones that they can get to shoplift for you. Make them watch terrifying films and create an environment of fear and swift reprisals.


After doing all that see what they're capable of.

Amazing how easy it is to "break" a child.

So its always nurture and never nature then? What if you're wrong and supporting the release of simply bad people into society. Bet thats a risk you'd be prepared to take, isn't it?

If it is nurture, then once a kid has been programmed to the stage of torturing and murdering then there's no turning back. Life imprisonment to protect society acceptable under these circumstances too. Shame for the kid.

As that was my first post on this thread I think you jumped the gun a little and prejudged my position.

I was merely pointing out that children are fragile and as 10ps says, to judge adults by what they did as children is not necessarily the best thing to do.

As a kid growing up I had no clue as to what a cruel deprived upbringing can do. I knew a few kids from homes that were less than ideal. These people took longer to "find their feet" in the real world, their parents hadn't given them the tools to believe in themselves and thus they were not as well developed than those of us from loving families. Eventually though we reach the stage I am at and you'd be hard pushed to tell the difference between myself and friends that didn't have the best start.

From my own (anecdotal and therefore useless) experience I would say that nurture has a lot to do with how you turn out but you can recover from poor nurturing. I also believe that to recover from the bad lessons takes twice as long as if you had learnt it correctly in the first place, I feel that you need time to "unlearn" bad habits and learn good ones.

However as I am not a psychiatric doctor nor a psychotherapist and given that I have had no contact with either boy I can't categorically state that they are beyond help or rehabilitated. I have to do the only logical thing for a civilised society and that is to trust those who have been put into positions to evaluate and decide the best course of action for the boys. (although with the shower of ste we have in parliament I can't say that my faith is particularily strong)

What I am not going to do is join the legions of fkwits who feel that as they've seen a couple of tabloid reports about it and spoke to a bloke down the pub, that they are in a position to judge the mental states of these two individuals and their likelihood of reoffending.

You can flame me for all you're worth. I know I am right and many of you are only a hairs breadth from the sort of awful violence that saw these two imprisoned in the first place.

The funny thing is there were more people willing to defend the convicted paedophile (had sex with a 24 month old!) who was banged up for causing the death of baby p than there are of two "child-killers" Yet that man was an adult.

Had the two boys both come from good homes with loving parents and stable relationships then I would feel a little better about condemning them. But having not been treated like that in my childhood I can't possibly contemplate what horrific acts I would have been capable of.

Absolutely spot on.

[turbobloke]

Parrot of Doom said:

freecar said:

FarleyRusk said:

freecar said:

I love the warm sense of community that can be felt here at pistonheads. Where a crowd can ignorantly bay for blood like savages yet condemn the same savage behaviour.

Parents, do one thing for me.

Abuse your children, treat them with contempt, never be proud of them for anything. beat them when you feel like hurting something and put lit cigarettes out on them for fun.

Now don't feed them properly, get them drunk and beat them when they are sick, make sure they have no possessions of their own and that they know that they are possessions of yours, that you don't care about.

Now, dominate every aspect of their lives, prevent them from going to school or make them go in dirty, smelly clothes. Make sure they don't have any friends that they want, choose their friends for them, ones that they can get to shoplift for you. Make them watch terrifying films and create an environment of fear and swift reprisals.


After doing all that see what they're capable of.

Amazing how easy it is to "break" a child.

So its always nurture and never nature then? What if you're wrong and supporting the release of simply bad people into society. Bet thats a risk you'd be prepared to take, isn't it?

If it is nurture, then once a kid has been programmed to the stage of torturing and murdering then there's no turning back. Life imprisonment to protect society acceptable under these circumstances too. Shame for the kid.

As that was my first post on this thread I think you jumped the gun a little and prejudged my position.

I was merely pointing out that children are fragile and as 10ps says, to judge adults by what they did as children is not necessarily the best thing to do.

As a kid growing up I had no clue as to what a cruel deprived upbringing can do. I knew a few kids from homes that were less than ideal. These people took longer to "find their feet" in the real world, their parents hadn't given them the tools to believe in themselves and thus they were not as well developed than those of us from loving families. Eventually though we reach the stage I am at and you'd be hard pushed to tell the difference between myself and friends that didn't have the best start.

From my own (anecdotal and therefore useless) experience I would say that nurture has a lot to do with how you turn out but you can recover from poor nurturing. I also believe that to recover from the bad lessons takes twice as long as if you had learnt it correctly in the first place, I feel that you need time to "unlearn" bad habits and learn good ones.

However as I am not a psychiatric doctor nor a psychotherapist and given that I have had no contact with either boy I can't categorically state that they are beyond help or rehabilitated. I have to do the only logical thing for a civilised society and that is to trust those who have been put into positions to evaluate and decide the best course of action for the boys. (although with the shower of ste we have in parliament I can't say that my faith is particularily strong)

What I am not going to do is join the legions of fkwits who feel that as they've seen a couple of tabloid reports about it and spoke to a bloke down the pub, that they are in a position to judge the mental states of these two individuals and their likelihood of reoffending.

You can flame me for all you're worth. I know I am right and many of you are only a hairs breadth from the sort of awful violence that saw these two imprisoned in the first place.

The funny thing is there were more people willing to defend the convicted paedophile (had sex with a 24 month old!) who was banged up for causing the death of baby p than there are of two "child-killers" Yet that man was an adult.

Had the two boys both come from good homes with loving parents and stable relationships then I would feel a little better about condemning them. But having not been treated like that in my childhood I can't possibly contemplate what horrific acts I would have been capable of.

Absolutely spot on.

Possibly, except for this bit I know I am right and many of you are only a hairs breadth from the sort of awful violence that saw these two imprisoned in the first place which is a can't-be-serious assertion followed by a ridiculous generalisation.

No flames, just opinions

[BoRED S2upid]

I would like to think with there being so few child killers released back intot he community that these people are kept a VERY close eye on. I mean if he even buys a train ticket to Liverpool some computer csomewhere flashes this up to MI5 or whoever and they come down on him very quickly and whisk him back off to prison.

What would happen if he met a girl (Or guy) who had kids? would the authorities tell that person?

[tangent police]

FarleyRusk said:

tangent police said:

FarleyRusk said:

Nice post freecar

I don't have any faith in psychobabble experts to make any such judgements on fitness to be returned to society. Psychology isn't a science and all the people I've ever met from that field were crackers. Which explains why they often get such decisions wrong. If you torture and murder a child then there should be segregation not lovey dovey maybe / could-be solutions that put innocent members of society at risk.

Whilst psychology isn't an exact science, there are some surprisingly good models which explain and predict people's behaviour. A lot of these are based on physiology. In a lot of cases, these models work. It isn't some sort of astrology nonsense.

It's popular dogma to say "they're all mad" and "psychobabble". It shows a closed mind, as well as a degree of ignorance.

I agree that there is a degree of speculation in certain cases, but humans are no different from every other natural phenomena, their behaviour is predictable, understandable and in some cases modifiable by various inputs. Perhaps if prison was more like "The Clockwork Orange", we might see some good, proper behaviourism applied!

I wonder whether psychology offends people's sense of self.

Anyway, tangent off.

My anecdotal evidence from 5 shrinks that I have met (in a social capacity) is that they are all maladjusted and most-certainly nuts. That's probably not a statistically significent sample nor a professional 'diagnosis', but its all I have to go on. And I that makes me ignorant in your book then so be it. I did like your vague asertion that "In a lot of cases, these models work". Well that's not really enough to let a toddler-torturing killer free is it? Such a cruel fker doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. The victim was never afforded such decency. Perhaps you'd volunteer to have all such released psychopaths to come and live in your street? After all 'scientists' have pronounced them safe to live in society... Thought not.

I agree with your comment about "fits most". Probability/stats are a part of good science. I do have a gripe about medical science not being rigourous enough due to this reason. "We took a sample of 200 people and eating bacon causes stomach cancer". I also have a gripe with idiots high on unreality. Half educated "feeling" social worker types are among the worst offenders (and I have dealt with a lot of them when I was in Ed).

I think the outcomes from "social workers" and other "think tanks" are overly rose tinted.

[Oakey]

Tony*T3 said:

y2blade said:

esselte said:

Rollcage said:

Tony*T3 said:

Its a funny society we live in. There are many adults that have done just as bad crimes, that have been released, and that dont get any of this notoriety and treatment for their crimes or persecution. You wouldnt know if one of your neighbors was a child murderer yet we all have our opinions on these few 'celebrity criminals'.

Maxine Carr was for instance not a murderer. Yet many profess that they'd want to see her dead. Yet there are people that you pass on the street that are likely to have done far far worse, yet dont have this 'celebrity criminal' status.

Anything to do with kids (ie Jamie) is a very emotional business, and will likely cloud many people's objectivity.

As you say, if this crime had happened with adults, it would not be anywhere near as notorious. Its very notoriety makes it a very tricky case to deal with. I think the original sentence was too short, but also that they need not necessarily spend the rest of their lives behind bars.

I think there are only about a dozen true "Lifers" in the UK prison system today?

So you reckon if two adults had taken 2 year old Jamie Bulger,tortured and killed him and then left his body on a train line to be cut in two it wouldn't have been notorious..? Really?

I think what he means is that if two adults had done this to another adult then no it wouldn't have been as notorious

Edited by y2blade on Wednesday 3rd March 13:34

In the last few months there have been numerous cases of Adults murdering children, including starvation, abuse to the extent of every bone being broken etc.

Can you, or anyone else here, name these people that did this, without resorting to google searches etc?

Can you even name the victims?




Edit to add, not haveing a 'go' at anyone, and for the record, I cant name them either.

Edited by Tony*T3 on Wednesday 3rd March 13:45

The Mcanns

Edited by Oakey on Thursday 4th March 11:02

[Dai Capp]

just as an aside, I'm sure I read somewhere a while back that Robert Thompson (although under his new name) had been arrested in Northern Ireland for murder...

DC

[monthefish]

robm3 said:

Well I just now stupidly clicked on that link about what happen to the child as didn't really know details, we only got the high level stuff in Australia.

Now feel fkin sad, got tears in my eyes, stomach has gone tight etc.. just fkin awful.

I felt the same way. I stopped reading after a while - I'd heard enough. Although I was naturally shocked at the time it happened, now that I have a young son of a similar age to James, just thinking about this story makes me feel quite shaken up.

[monthefish]

Parrot of Doom said:

Dave_ST220 said:

A 10 year old, no matter what the upbringing, knows what they did was serverly wrong. I have a daughter about the same age as James, how anyone, no matter what age, could do what those evil bds did is beyond me.

Of course they knew it was wrong.

They simply didn't care, and that is entirely as a result of their horrific upbringing.


I'm amazed at how often this simple but important fact needs to be repeated.

I know what you are tyring to convey, however no upbringing can over-ride the human instincts with regards to not torturing a small child.

What they did was more evil and extreme than any 'ubringing' or 'social issues' could ever begin to justify/explain.

[turbobloke]

There was a recent case which but for fate could possibly have resulted in another death in similar circumstances, at the time I remember a news bulletin from the Court with a reporter outside, where the proceedings were being summarised and one of the questions asked of the very young offender who with a brother (?) had tortured at length two younger boys was why at one point he had stopped. Possibly the Court was looking for a shred of humanity in response to begging from the victim, but the reply was that he stopped because his arm ached and would have carried on otherwise.

Edited by turbobloke on Thursday 4th March 15:18