Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8

[biggbn]

jakesmith said:

Why do ‘no thanks’ voters not just vote Tory
It’s been made certain that Sturgeon will treat an SNP majority as a green light for indyref
Can’t folk just be pragmatic and vote for least bad? Are they incapable of putting aside their preferences and morals to avoid something far far worse

I am considering voting snp as the least worst option thanks to all the encouragement to recognise least worst as a valid option from many on this site. Their policies, other than Brexit sit well with me. Cannot stand their representatives however. It's them or the greens I reckon

[simoid]

biggbn said:

I am considering voting snp as the least worst option thanks to all the encouragement to recognise least worst as a valid option from many on this site. Their policies, other than Brexit sit well with me. Cannot stand their representatives however. It's them or the greens I reckon

“Their policies other than Brexit” being... an independence referendum for Scotland at some point in the future?

[jakesmith]

biggbn said:

I am considering voting snp as the least worst option thanks to all the encouragement to recognise least worst as a valid option from many on this site. Their policies, other than Brexit sit well with me. Cannot stand their representatives however. It's them or the greens I reckon

Why not judge the SNP on their record in office
They deserve consigning to the dustbin on that basis their record on health is utterly atrocious and as a devolved service can not be blamed on ‘Westminster’

[Evercross]

biggbn said:

I am considering voting snp as the least worst option thanks to all the encouragement to recognise least worst as a valid option from many on this site. Their policies, other than Brexit sit well with me.

The problem is a lot of their policies are bunk as they are mostly professing on matters they have no control over so can make as many crazy and impossible promises they want knowing they will never be tested on them - it is gesture politics of the most dishonest kind. What policies they do have competence over though must always be viewed through the prism of of their aim of achieving separation from England - remember what I said about 'the wrong things for the right reasons'.

No-one joins the SNP with the primary aim of making schools better, or to improve the health service, or to reform justice, law and order, or to boost the economy. Membership of the SNP is predicated on the faith that independence will make these things happen automatically and that once unshackled from England, Scotland will produce and reveal the people and resources to make it happen. That is their mindset. The need to be skilled or have the aim of making these improvements in the here-and-now with the hand they have been dealt is the furthest thing from their minds, and to many of them to do so is regarded as detrimental to their cause.

biggbn said:

Cannot stand their representatives however.

Once you understand their primary motivation (see above) it is not hard to understand why.....

Edited by Evercross on Monday 2nd December 14:46

[Burwood]

jakesmith said:

biggbn said:

I am considering voting snp as the least worst option thanks to all the encouragement to recognise least worst as a valid option from many on this site. Their policies, other than Brexit sit well with me. Cannot stand their representatives however. It's them or the greens I reckon

Why not judge the SNP on their record in office
They deserve consigning to the dustbin on that basis their record on health is utterly atrocious and as a devolved service can not be blamed on ‘Westminster’

They try and side step it the easy way 'Evil Tories didn't give us enough money'

[Evercross]

Burwood said:

They try and side step it the easy way 'Evil Tories didn't give us enough money'

See what I said earlier. Even if they had all the money in the world they cannot be seen to make devolution alone look like it is working. The SNP are a wrecking force and anyone voting for them is encouraging intentionally bad politics.

Some can even reconcile it in their consciences!

[glazbagun]

jakesmith said:

Why do ‘no thanks’ voters not just vote Tory
It’s been made certain that Sturgeon will treat an SNP majority as a green light for indyref
Can’t folk just be pragmatic and vote for least bad? Are they incapable of putting aside their preferences and morals to avoid something far far worse

I voted remain both times and am confident that another indyref would return the same result. I don't fear a referendum, I just think it's ridiculous and a (deliberate) distraction from running the country.

I could have voted Tory until around the time Boris sacked his own MP's for voting against the government, Ruth left and CCHQ started pulling stunts like changing their twitter handle to Fact Check UK and Boris dodging brillo. They're unworthy of my vote and failures of the other guys aren't enough to make me vote for them.

[biggbn]

jakesmith said:

biggbn said:

I am considering voting snp as the least worst option thanks to all the encouragement to recognise least worst as a valid option from many on this site. Their policies, other than Brexit sit well with me. Cannot stand their representatives however. It's them or the greens I reckon

Why not judge the SNP on their record in office
They deserve consigning to the dustbin on that basis their record on health is utterly atrocious and as a devolved service can not be blamed on ‘Westminster’

Hold on. I have been exhorted to vote for the least worst option. The snp in my opinion are a bit of a shambles. But, they are least worst for me. Scottish labour is a joke as is the main party, lib dems? , no thanks, vaccuous self righteousness falling apart before me eyes..scottish Tories? I might at one point have voted for them, but with Ruth Davidson gone they will become just another unfettered version of the big boys down south and I have no connection what so ever with their leadership or ethos. Green? A possibility but a protest vote at best.

My philosophies are fairly left wing but open minded. I am pro independence, pro Brexit, pro investment in both our armed forces and police forces, anti nuclear weapons, pro investment in education, care and health, pro nationalisation of some of our essential infrastructure, pro a caring nurtured capitalism that contributes more fairly to the world...where do i find a political home?

Most likely it will be a vocal none of the above is I believe that is a genuine choice. But least worst, if we are going down that road, is probably snp bearing in mind I live in Scotland and can't complain about the way things are generally. Our political.classes are parlous, dreadful, and the politicising of the recent London murders by almost all parties makes me sick and i suspect will engender an include me out attitude on polling day.

Edited by biggbn on Monday 2nd December 19:31

[Big Robbo]

glazbagun said:

jakesmith said:

Why do ‘no thanks’ voters not just vote Tory
It’s been made certain that Sturgeon will treat an SNP majority as a green light for indyref
Can’t folk just be pragmatic and vote for least bad? Are they incapable of putting aside their preferences and morals to avoid something far far worse

I voted remain both times and am confident that another indyref would return the same result. I don't fear a referendum, I just think it's ridiculous and a (deliberate) distraction from running the country.

I could have voted Tory until around the time Boris sacked his own MP's for voting against the government, Ruth left and CCHQ started pulling stunts like changing their twitter handle to Fact Check UK and Boris dodging brillo. They're unworthy of my vote and failures of the other guys aren't enough to make me vote for them.

Not looking at the bigger NATIONAL picture then? Scotland voted to remain as part of the UK but you're just proving that you can't look beyond giving the English a kickin'.....again what/why does Everyone else have to put up with porridge guzzlers influencing things from a minority standing??

[biggbn]

Big Robbo said:

glazbagun said:

jakesmith said:

Why do ‘no thanks’ voters not just vote Tory
It’s been made certain that Sturgeon will treat an SNP majority as a green light for indyref
Can’t folk just be pragmatic and vote for least bad? Are they incapable of putting aside their preferences and morals to avoid something far far worse

I voted remain both times and am confident that another indyref would return the same result. I don't fear a referendum, I just think it's ridiculous and a (deliberate) distraction from running the country.

I could have voted Tory until around the time Boris sacked his own MP's for voting against the government, Ruth left and CCHQ started pulling stunts like changing their twitter handle to Fact Check UK and Boris dodging brillo. They're unworthy of my vote and failures of the other guys aren't enough to make me vote for them.

Not looking at the bigger NATIONAL picture then? Scotland voted to remain as part of the UK but you're just proving that you can't look beyond giving the English a kickin'.....again what/why does Everyone else have to put up with porridge guzzlers influencing things from a minority standing??

I'm looking at the bigger national picture, I think Boris is unfit for governance. I will not enable him to do so although I suspect if he can avoid actually killing somebody, he will win!!

[glazbagun]

Big Robbo said:

glazbagun said:

jakesmith said:

Why do ‘no thanks’ voters not just vote Tory
It’s been made certain that Sturgeon will treat an SNP majority as a green light for indyref
Can’t folk just be pragmatic and vote for least bad? Are they incapable of putting aside their preferences and morals to avoid something far far worse

I voted remain both times and am confident that another indyref would return the same result. I don't fear a referendum, I just think it's ridiculous and a (deliberate) distraction from running the country.

I could have voted Tory until around the time Boris sacked his own MP's for voting against the government, Ruth left and CCHQ started pulling stunts like changing their twitter handle to Fact Check UK and Boris dodging brillo. They're unworthy of my vote and failures of the other guys aren't enough to make me vote for them.

Not looking at the bigger NATIONAL picture then? Scotland voted to remain as part of the UK but you're just proving that you can't look beyond giving the English a kickin'.....again what/why does Everyone else have to put up with porridge guzzlers influencing things from a minority standing??

I'm not sure what your point is.

[simoid]

glazbagun said:

I'm not sure what your point is.

Possibly mixed you up for the other poster with similar consonants. Or he’s been trolling so much he can no longer continue comprehensible conversations.

[Cantaloupe]

jakesmith said:

Why not judge the SNP on their record in office
They deserve consigning to the dustbin on that basis their record on health is utterly atrocious and as a devolved service can not be blamed on ‘Westminster’

They still moan that Westminster is strangling funds and that the NI raised in Scotland is being syphoned off into
building English hospitals and that if independent we could have an NHS to envy the world.

They really do live in gaga land.

[B'stard Child]

B'stard Child said:

hoagypubdog said:

B'stard Child said:

hoagypubdog said:

where are the Monster Raving Loonies when you need them.

Amazing not 10 mins ago a leaflet for them dropped through my letterbox - made absolutely no sense at all

Are you sure it wasn't the Lib Dems?

Well it was yellow but it defo said MRLP

I've checked - defo not fib dums

Here is the A to Z of their pledges

[simoid]

B'stard Child said:

I've checked - defo not fib dums

Here is the A to Z of their pledges

I thought it was sarcasm from Hoagy but you never can be sure these days

[Edinburger]

Jeez. This thread has gone a bit weird over the last few days.

[Evercross]

To paraphrase our resident SNP apparatchik, here is something genuinely 'interesting'.

Why 'independence' equals division

(If you are having trouble reading the full article then open it in a private/incognito window)

For me what is most interesting is that the article reveals that the Scottish Government leaked what should have been confidential information from a Spanish diplomat purporting to support the idea of a 'quick' re-entry to the EU which resulted in him losing his job. Wrong things for the right reasons. No regard for the man's position - just happy to use his words as propaganda.

Also..

The Scotsman said:

A critical tactic any secessionist movements is to prod the state to the extent that many become willing to see them go. Even if that takes decades of divisiveness, the minority just might, on a favourable day, become a tiny majority.

I re-iterate - anyone IMO who votes SNP is voting for damaging,negative divisive politics that will harm Scotland and the UK with the intention of achieving one goal that carries no guarantees of any improvement, driven by people who have no vision. Daily st with the promise of jam some day eventually.

No thanks.

Edited by Evercross on Tuesday 3rd December 09:45

[NoddyonNitrous]

Scotsman, not Herald

[Parsnip]

Baloonford on R4 this morning - I managed to actually listen to him, was a bit chilly - so all his hot air was nice to have in the car.

He was looking to pedal the "don't sell our NHS to Trump" angle, but I get the feeling when he was slightly blindsided when asked about who ran the NHS in Scotland and what their record was. In the end he basically resorted to "the NHS in Scotland is awful, but not as awful as England or Wales". So we are terrible, but we are less terrible than the other lot - what an absolute winner this guy is...

We do need more of people pushing the SNP on their record in office - whatever you think of their policies, independence, brexit or whatever, they have an abysmal record of running a country.

[Evercross]

NoddyonNitrous said:

Scotsman, not Herald

Fixed! Ta.

Parsnip said:

We do need more of people pushing the SNP on their record in office - whatever you think of their policies, independence, brexit or whatever, they have an abysmal record of running a country.

Latest OECD rankings for Education are out, and while the UK has risen overall and Scotland has recovered somewhat from its plummet from three years ago in Literacy from first (and way above the OECD average) to third (below the OECD average) back to second (still behind England), Scotland has fallen further behind in Maths and Science.

Scotland used to consistently lead the UK in all areas but the fall coincided with the introduction of outcome-based education in Scottish secondary schools - the so called 'Curriculum for Excellence' that the SNP's now Constitution Minister Mike Russell was responsible for.

The problem Scottish education has in recovering its position are three-fold

1. Changing a flawed education system is like turning around a super-tanker. Outcome-based education was tried and discredited in three other territories but Scotland ploughed ahead with it.

2. The SNP used CfE as an excuse to effectively disband the curricular development unit Learning and Teaching Scotland (LTS). They claim that they 'merged' it with the inspectorate body HMIE but this is disingenuous as the merged organisation Education Scotland has produced no curricular material (bar lists of weblinks and regurgitation of SQA Course Specs) since the merger. LTS used to second teachers to create and edit materials which could be used in all schools, but this development has stopped and it has now become effectively unpaid work that every teacher is doing individually or informally as groups which is exceptionally inefficient and one of the reasons teachers have rightly complained about skyrocketing workload levels, and means that there are no agreed standards.

3. The assessment body SQA used CfE as an excuse to do away with a raft of exams, turning courses into internally assessable ones. Again this leads to inconsistency and difficulty in measuring and maintaining standards. The problem though is that the SQA still burn through the same budget but with less infrastructure and staff (the head honchos rewarded themselves with bigger salaries for a job well done) and the cost of trying to get the organisation back to where it was would be significant.

All under the SNP's watch!

Edited by Evercross on Tuesday 3rd December 10:42