HS2, whats the current status ?
Discussion
CoolHands said:
exactly. Sadly although Gary might work for a company that trusts its employees to do a good job and be professional, most employers do not and want you at the desk, even if it is unnecessary.
I am lucky (I work in technology, broadly).. seeing my boss tomorrow for the first time in person since November.Vaud said:
V8 Fettler said:
The gaps between trains drag down the total capacity per hour compared to road vehicles.
And the speed?The "Loop" under LA.
The minimum viable product will be electric cars (mostly Teslas) with add on guidance wheels running under autopilot. It is likely that these car will be permitted to run at up to their maximum speed (~125mph for the slowest Model 3).
The next stage of the product will be to use dedicated Model X based 12 seat buses, these will probably run at 155mph and have better aero and larger batteries. If we assume a 2 second headway that is 21,600 people per hour per lane.
The tunnels are apparently coming in at $15 million per lane mile. At those sorts of prices you could build a system bettering HS2 entirely tunneled for far less.
Rubber tyres, battery electric, autonomous guidance and human scaled vehicles (cars) are simply much cheaper in terms of infrastructure cost than bulk freight sized vehicles travelling on electrified rails with centrally controlled signalised systems.
The ultimate end position is likely to be motorways being used for high speed autonomously driven cars, grade separated high speed autonomous car systems are a good way to demonstrate this before we can clear the manually driven cars out of the way.
I expect a flurry of post nit picking the Loop, as an exercise before doing this please consider generating solutions to your observed problem before posting.
Talksteer said:
Vaud said:
V8 Fettler said:
The gaps between trains drag down the total capacity per hour compared to road vehicles.
And the speed?The "Loop" under LA.
The minimum viable product will be electric cars (mostly Teslas) with add on guidance wheels running under autopilot. It is likely that these car will be permitted to run at up to their maximum speed (~125mph for the slowest Model 3).
The next stage of the product will be to use dedicated Model X based 12 seat buses, these will probably run at 155mph and have better aero and larger batteries. If we assume a 2 second headway that is 21,600 people per hour per lane.
The tunnels are apparently coming in at $15 million per lane mile. At those sorts of prices you could build a system bettering HS2 entirely tunneled for far less.
Rubber tyres, battery electric, autonomous guidance and human scaled vehicles (cars) are simply much cheaper in terms of infrastructure cost than bulk freight sized vehicles travelling on electrified rails with centrally controlled signalised systems.
The ultimate end position is likely to be motorways being used for high speed autonomously driven cars, grade separated high speed autonomous car systems are a good way to demonstrate this before we can clear the manually driven cars out of the way.
I expect a flurry of post nit picking the Loop, as an exercise before doing this please consider generating solutions to your observed problem before posting.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/01/elon-musk-has...
As nice as motorways are they don't go into city centers, unlike train tracks.
Edited by Fittster on Sunday 24th February 21:21
Vaud said:
The counter to that is that the better connected the North is, the easier it is to redistribute services (e.g. civil service) from London.
No, what you have done is make it still easier for everything to be centred around London. I dont see we need more of that.Whilst you might be able to direct the public sector to leave london, making London more accesible from the north, will increase the London pull effect, not reduce it.
Sheepshanks said:
I’m confused by these arguments - HS2 isn’t going to used for commuting, is it?
Really? Who is going to be using it then? Tourists?It will more expensive than the current birmingham/london routes, so realistically it will be business types. Though it may not be a mad rish for 9am, ultimately, its still commuting.
But as i stated earlier, that market will be much reduced by the time its open.
monkfish1 said:
Vaud said:
The counter to that is that the better connected the North is, the easier it is to redistribute services (e.g. civil service) from London.
No, what you have done is make it still easier for everything to be centred around London. I dont see we need more of that.Whilst you might be able to direct the public sector to leave london, making London more accesible from the north, will increase the London pull effect, not reduce it.
All it going to do if feed London and leach off the other cities. They did the same thing locally with the metro link around Manchester. It was sold on how it will regenerate the provincial towns. As though people in Manchester with allreday the best shops and services would jump on a tram to a rundown town centre full of charity and betting shops.
If they are serious about redistributing things north then the £50+ billion should been spent linking the northern cities with each other and not just rail but roads and not to London. Making them attractive places to do business in themselves. Not because they have good links to London.
I've said before and will say it again the only reason it get so much support from MPs is because many of them will be the biggest beneficiaries of it. Just think of all them MPs get to and from London at taxpayer experience on their shiny new train.
]
Edited by Not-The-Messiah on Sunday 24th February 22:04
garyhun said:
For the last ten years I was involved in learning and development for Microsoft. My customer base was Europe, Middle East and Africa.
I went to the office about once a year over that decade and into my customer base about 5 times for conferences.
This frequent travelling on trains for businesses is going to shrink to nothing over the next 2 decades.
And here is an example of the internet doing precisely the opposite.I went to the office about once a year over that decade and into my customer base about 5 times for conferences.
This frequent travelling on trains for businesses is going to shrink to nothing over the next 2 decades.
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2018/aug/16/wis...
https://expertvagabond.com/instagram-tourism-impac...
9-5 commuting may decrease but the demand for travel is likely to keep on rising. However the principal issue is that travel demand will likely be unpredictable.
This is why mega projects that take 30 years to plan and build are often a waste of time.
Evanivitch said:
spaximus said:
Or we could develop the hydrogen powered trains that are coming on line and not need to go to the expense of electrifying any of the rails. The London to South Wales electrification has cost loads so far and really made an eyesore of some sections which will not lead to higher speeds without the track updaters at the same time.
HS2 is madness to my mind, but will create some jobs and profit for companies at huge cost to the tax payer
Hydrogen is a grossly inefficient way of using electricity to create a fuel that is then turned back to electricity. HS2 is madness to my mind, but will create some jobs and profit for companies at huge cost to the tax payer
What's more the suggestion that it would be more affordable to design and develop a bespoke solution is quite laughable in itself.
Talksteer said:
Vaud said:
V8 Fettler said:
The gaps between trains drag down the total capacity per hour compared to road vehicles.
And the speed?The "Loop" under LA.
The minimum viable product will be electric cars (mostly Teslas) with add on guidance wheels running under autopilot. It is likely that these car will be permitted to run at up to their maximum speed (~125mph for the slowest Model 3).
The next stage of the product will be to use dedicated Model X based 12 seat buses, these will probably run at 155mph and have better aero and larger batteries. If we assume a 2 second headway that is 21,600 people per hour per lane.
The tunnels are apparently coming in at $15 million per lane mile. At those sorts of prices you could build a system bettering HS2 entirely tunneled for far less.
Rubber tyres, battery electric, autonomous guidance and human scaled vehicles (cars) are simply much cheaper in terms of infrastructure cost than bulk freight sized vehicles travelling on electrified rails with centrally controlled signalised systems.
The ultimate end position is likely to be motorways being used for high speed autonomously driven cars, grade separated high speed autonomous car systems are a good way to demonstrate this before we can clear the manually driven cars out of the way.
I expect a flurry of post nit picking the Loop, as an exercise before doing this please consider generating solutions to your observed problem before posting.
spaximus said:
No more laughable than a track that has no role in a developing world being built as a vanity project, spurred on by those with vested interests in it being completed, regardless of cost or need.
I thought we were talking what alternatives there were to do with the money anyway? Like South Wales electrification...Rovinghawk said:
JB! said:
When else are the liens supposed to be maintained?
8am on a tuesday?
How much maintenance does a rail on a sleeper on a load of stones typically need?8am on a tuesday?
Rails themselves fatigue and if left unattended cause things like Hatfield.
the track alignments need maintained, fastenings, pads, nylons...
It's a complex system that needs almost constant attention.
This is without getting into the signalling equipment, power supply, switches and crossings...
Talksteer said:
garyhun said:
For the last ten years I was involved in learning and development for Microsoft. My customer base was Europe, Middle East and Africa.
I went to the office about once a year over that decade and into my customer base about 5 times for conferences.
This frequent travelling on trains for businesses is going to shrink to nothing over the next 2 decades.
And here is an example of the internet doing precisely the opposite.I went to the office about once a year over that decade and into my customer base about 5 times for conferences.
This frequent travelling on trains for businesses is going to shrink to nothing over the next 2 decades.
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2018/aug/16/wis...
https://expertvagabond.com/instagram-tourism-impac...
9-5 commuting may decrease but the demand for travel is likely to keep on rising. However the principal issue is that travel demand will likely be unpredictable.
This is why mega projects that take 30 years to plan and build are often a waste of time.
Fittster said:
Which UK mega projects have been a waste of time? At worst they go over budget but they tend to provide a value resource in the long term (e.g. the Channel tunnel). I can't think of any unused bridges, roads or other pieces of substantial infrastructure in the UK.
I agree. I think infrastructure investment is a great thing and will generally work out well. Increasing rail capacity, road capacity, building bridges, tunnelling, new hospitals - all good.Value for money is a separate question but also something that's very difficult assess. Some of the things that are now regarded as infrastructure masterpieces would never have been built if the full financial picture was known and scrutinised at commencement e.g. Forth Rail Bridge, Channel Tunnel.
In terms of 'building for the future', I'm not sure what we're supposed to do. Maybe invest in free 5G for everyone rather than train tracks? I think the railways will be around for a while and continue to bring value to the nation. I think there's a fundamental human need for face to face interaction. Maybe it won't be for work but if we're stuck in the house taking Skype calls all day, there will be an increased desire to travel for leisure.
Talksteer said:
The main issue is turning radius a design speed of 400km/h means that the turn radius goes out by nearly 80% compared to 300km/h.
These guys have been making that case for about 10 years, I don't think that they've been listened to just the case that the original rules for the project set for political purposes have finally butted up against reality.
http://www.highspeeduk.co.uk/
Does anyone have a view of HSUK, on the face of it their proposal does appear better than HS2.
Yeah I like that alot, the midlands ring and Woodhead use make complete sense.These guys have been making that case for about 10 years, I don't think that they've been listened to just the case that the original rules for the project set for political purposes have finally butted up against reality.
http://www.highspeeduk.co.uk/
Does anyone have a view of HSUK, on the face of it their proposal does appear better than HS2.
JB! said:
Talksteer said:
The main issue is turning radius a design speed of 400km/h means that the turn radius goes out by nearly 80% compared to 300km/h.
These guys have been making that case for about 10 years, I don't think that they've been listened to just the case that the original rules for the project set for political purposes have finally butted up against reality.
http://www.highspeeduk.co.uk/
Does anyone have a view of HSUK, on the face of it their proposal does appear better than HS2.
Yeah I like that alot, the midlands ring and Woodhead use make complete sense.These guys have been making that case for about 10 years, I don't think that they've been listened to just the case that the original rules for the project set for political purposes have finally butted up against reality.
http://www.highspeeduk.co.uk/
Does anyone have a view of HSUK, on the face of it their proposal does appear better than HS2.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Part of my commute runs parallel to the WCML. I often see freight trains of shipping containers. I'm not aware they're made to a different gauge - the standard is international (20' or 40' long) and does fit on our rail gauge AKAIK.We get containers rail-freighted from Felixstowe to Cannock and then road freighted the last few miles to us, every month.
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