CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 13)

[monkfish1]

Boringvolvodriver said:

TTmonkey said:

You sound like a scared, irrational, nut job.

So having to have proof of vaccination to go to a night club as proposed by the Government qualifies as being a nut job now?

Once introduced such a scheme could easily be subject to mission creep

It already is. Ignoring the headlines about nightclubs, they also said other crowded venues. Suitably vague such that it could cover almost anything including pubs, supermarkets or even the local takeaway. The "nightclub" headline was a diversion, because they know most of the poulation dont go to nightclubs, so its "ok"..

[WindyCommon]

Boringvolvodriver said:

…

Next step - digital ID with more access to your health records or other things

Then people carrying (for example) STD’s could also be excluded from public situations. Win win!

What could possibly go wrong?

[Brave Fart]

SCEtoAUX said:

Boringvolvodriver said:

So the question is why do they want to do this because it sure as hell isn’t looking like it’s much to do with a virus with a 99+% survival rate.

Digital ID cards. It's always been Digital ID cards.

I had an interesting discussion last night with a few friends about the whole digital ID card idea. They couldn't see a problem with it. Their position was this: "If you aren't doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to fear. If you're a criminal, your ID card will alert people, or you won't have one. Only the bad guys should worry about ID cards."

In my opinion, a lot of people think this way. Underpinning their thoughts is the belief that governments have our best interests at heart. They genuinely cannot see how it could be used as a means of control. I raised the issue of the government tracking your spending and the whole notion of a social credit score, and they just laughed and said: "That won't happen. This isn't China, you know."

Make of that what you will.

[Boringvolvodriver]

monkfish1 said:

Boringvolvodriver said:

TTmonkey said:

You sound like a scared, irrational, nut job.

So having to have proof of vaccination to go to a night club as proposed by the Government qualifies as being a nut job now?

Once introduced such a scheme could easily be subject to mission creep

It already is. Ignoring the headlines about nightclubs, they also said other crowded venues. Suitably vague such that it could cover almost anything including pubs, supermarkets or even the local takeaway. The "nightclub" headline was a diversion, because they know most of the poulation dont go to nightclubs, so its "ok"..

Or could they decide that places of worship are crowded places………

[Boringvolvodriver]

Brave Fart said:

I had an interesting discussion last night with a few friends about the whole digital ID card idea. They couldn't see a problem with it. Their position was this: "If you aren't doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to fear. If you're a criminal, your ID card will alert people, or you won't have one. Only the bad guys should worry about ID cards."

In my opinion, a lot of people think this way. Underpinning their thoughts is the belief that governments have our best interests at heart. They genuinely cannot see how it could be used as a means of control. I raised the issue of the government tracking your spending and the whole notion of a social credit score, and they just laughed and said: "That won't happen. This isn't China, you know."

Make of that what you will.

This isn’t China……… what was it Ferguson said about getting away with lockdowns? Where did he get that idea from I wonder?

I suspect many people are potentially rather trusting of government and politicians despite saying that they don’t trust them.

Fwiw, I really really hope that I am wrong and that the passport scheme doesn’t happen. I read an article where the Governments Privacy Tzar ( who knew we had one?) was saying that any such scheme should stop once the pandemic was over………..

[g4ry13]

TTmonkey said:

GSE said:

TTmonkey said:

Having carried an ID card all my adult life I can only say ‘I couldn’t give a fk’ about it.

May be you will give a fk when you turn up at an event but are barred from entry because computer says no.

You sound like a scared, irrational, nut job.

It's funny how if a few years back someone said to you that in the future we would be forced to walk around wearing face masks, highly restricted in our movements to leave the country and required to provide proof of having an injection you would have probably called that person a "nut job" too.

[Brave Fart]

Boringvolvodriver said:

This isn’t China……… what was it Ferguson said about getting away with lockdowns? Where did he get that idea from I wonder?

I suspect many people are potentially rather trusting of government and politicians despite saying that they don’t trust them.

Fwiw, I really really hope that I am wrong and that the passport scheme doesn’t happen. I read an article where the Governments Privacy Tzar ( who knew we had one?) was saying that any such scheme should stop once the pandemic was over………..

For clarity, I am 100% against domestic vaccine passports and ID cards. Like you, I hope that covid fizzles out very soon, the government turns its attention elsewhere, and this thread becomes a thing of the past.
However, I suspect that in this digital age, the idea that we'll carry on for ever with analogue passports, licences and certificates is most unlikely.

[TheJimi]

g4ry13 said:

TTmonkey said:

GSE said:

TTmonkey said:

Having carried an ID card all my adult life I can only say ‘I couldn’t give a fk’ about it.

May be you will give a fk when you turn up at an event but are barred from entry because computer says no.

You sound like a scared, irrational, nut job.

It's funny how if a few years back someone said to you that in the future we would be forced to walk around wearing face masks, highly restricted in our movements to leave the country and required to provide proof of having an injection you would have probably called that person a "nut job" too.

A few years back? Try less than two!

Going back to the question of passports/ID - the genie is already halfway out the bottle, I think the progression is inevitable.

Edited by TheJimi on Wednesday 28th July 15:44

[vixen1700]

We have a little WhatsApp group of old school mates (we're all 54 now) and we have occasional impromtu chats and giggles.

Today I mentioned the state of my mother who is in the care-home after the jab and subsequent bleed to the brain.

Got contacted privately after that by an old school friend who mentioned her aunt having convulsions and blackouts after her AZ jab and two of her friends having similar episodes.
Also one of her good friends who is in an induced coma since July 7th after her second jab.
She said she was angry that these things aren't being publicised more.

Not some nutty 5G, 'anti-vaxxer', just somebody I've known since 1978 and not somebody exaggerating an anecdote from a taxi-driver.

But obviously nothing can be proven...

[Andy888]

Pretty sure I have seen Estonia's digital ID system being touted as an example to follow, and in fairness I can see certain advantages to it.

https://e-estonia.com/solutions/e-identity/id-card

That said, I also don't appreciate being controlled or monitored any more than we currently are (arguably already too much).

I guess the problem is that we don't know whereabouts on the scale our leaders are likely to settle - hopefully not at the full blown China end, but then look how far Oz have gone, so nothing is beyond the realms of possibility.

More info: https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/services/legal/tech/asse...

Edited by Andy888 on Wednesday 28th July 16:06

[skwdenyer]

Boringvolvodriver said:

GSE said:

We could be enjoying our last summer of freedom of movement within our own country, without passport control. If this goes through CV19 won't be the only thing on the list. No doubt the government will rapidly expand it to include everything from the common cold, to voting the wrong way at the last election, whilst exempting themselves from the regulations, of course. Need to pop out to buy a pint of milk at a shop? Verboten!! You don't have the right pass! Never have I hated a Government so much as this lot, they are utter s!

The thing is that they are led by a man who claims to be a libertarian and said in the past that he would eat any ID card brought in.

Many Conservative MPs are opposed to it, as, judging by comments on the Telegraph (aka Torygraph) many Tory party members and traditional Tory voters.

So the question is why do they want to do this because it sure as hell isn’t looking like it’s much to do with a virus with a 99+% survival rate.

So how did you both vote at the last election? It isn't as if Boris being a two-faced morally-bankrupt opportunist populist was new information

[77th Brigade]

Fauci saying that a vaccinated person with the Delta variant has the same transmission risk as an unvaccinated person. Has this killed the logic in Covipasses?

Do some posters here have to eat their words?

[g4ry13]

77th Brigade said:

Fauci saying that a vaccinated person with the Delta variant has the same transmission risk as an unvaccinated person. Has this killed the logic in Covipasses?

Do some posters here have to eat their words?

Do you have a source for that? I would love to forward it on to my father who last week claimed I was going to kill them all and that it's only the unvaccinated spreading it.

[SS2.]

g4ry13 said:

77th Brigade said:

Fauci saying that a vaccinated person with the Delta variant has the same transmission risk as an unvaccinated person. Has this killed the logic in Covipasses?

Do some posters here have to eat their words?

Do you have a source for that? I would love to forward it on to my father who last week claimed I was going to kill them all and that it's only the unvaccinated spreading it.

Link

[77th Brigade]

SS2. said:

g4ry13 said:

77th Brigade said:

Fauci saying that a vaccinated person with the Delta variant has the same transmission risk as an unvaccinated person. Has this killed the logic in Covipasses?

Do some posters here have to eat their words?

Do you have a source for that? I would love to forward it on to my father who last week claimed I was going to kill them all and that it's only the unvaccinated spreading it.

Link

Thankyou.

[Andy888]

So we are essentially waiting for the nod from local devolved government. Great.

[skwdenyer]

77th Brigade said:

Fauci saying that a vaccinated person with the Delta variant has the same transmission risk as an unvaccinated person. Has this killed the logic in Covipasses?

Do some posters here have to eat their words?

In the real world of variants, the vaccination becomes less about limiting transmission as limiting seriousness of illness.

To give the Govt credit (which I seldom do), this is a moving target. Vaccination limited transmission in the original version of the virus. It seems to limit transmission in some other variants. It doesn't seem to for Delta, but well do for later ones.

It does seem to help keep the seriousness down.

Vaccination still seems like the sensible play here.

[isaldiri]

77th Brigade said:

Fauci saying that a vaccinated person with the Delta variant has the same transmission risk as an unvaccinated person. Has this killed the logic in Covipasses?

Do some posters here have to eat their words?

It depends I suppose. Eddiesteadygo might disagree on this but....

A symptomatic vaccinated person (a fair bit more likely with Delta than other earlier ones) probably has a similar transmission risk to an unvaccinated symptomatic person. I believe the CDC had stated only symptomatic vaxxed people should test themselves so Fauci isn't completely off his rocker stating that in some ways.

skwdenyer said:

Vaccination still seems like the sensible play here.

Define sensible. Coercing younger people to vax up is simply not going to achieve a meaningful absolute risk reduction because the numbers of those people getting seriously ill is very low anyway. That it can potentially be further lowered is neither here nor there and isn't decent justification for extension of vaccine passports and all the rest of the nonsense being bandied about.

Edited by isaldiri on Wednesday 28th July 16:27

[Nickgnome]

Andy888 said:

Pretty sure I have seen Estonia's digital ID system being touted as an example to follow, and in fairness I can see certain advantages to it.

https://e-estonia.com/solutions/e-identity/id-card

That said, I also don't appreciate being controlled or monitored any more than we currently are (arguably already too much).

I guess the problem is that we don't know whereabouts on the scale our leaders are likely to settle - hopefully not at the full blown China end, but then look how far Oz have gone, so nothing is beyond the realms of possibility.

More info: https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/services/legal/tech/asse...

Edited by Andy888 on Wednesday 28th July 16:06

I live there circa 50% of my time. Post soviet era Estonia grasped the opportunity to be a forward looking digital society. The Digital ID card facilitates much in relation to banking, company set up healthcare, property purchase etc.

It works really well and most there are not obsessed by the big brother fears as exemplified by some here.

[g4ry13]

77th Brigade said:

SS2. said:

g4ry13 said:

77th Brigade said:

Fauci saying that a vaccinated person with the Delta variant has the same transmission risk as an unvaccinated person. Has this killed the logic in Covipasses?

Do some posters here have to eat their words?

Do you have a source for that? I would love to forward it on to my father who last week claimed I was going to kill them all and that it's only the unvaccinated spreading it.

Link

Thankyou.

Thanks. Not sure he'll click on Twitter, he only watches BBC News at 10pm

Just the other day Fauci was saying the unvaccinated are causing case numbers to go up.