How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)
Discussion
dai1983 said:
Thorodin said:
I agree with all of that. Always assumed the reasons for 'our' desire for true independence was largely due to us not having been overun by invaders from other nations or tribes for over 1000 years, combined with the demonstration of our ability to work as a Union of equality with our closest neighbours. Until the early 70's that is. And unlike our esteemed continental cousins, many of them donating their genes in earlier adventures.
1066 + 1000?What do you mean with the genes bit?
As for European nations and peoples being the same, I think this deliberate ignorance and subversion of culture is one of the most dangerous, corrosive and unusuccesful elements of EU dogma. Whatever happened to vive la difference?
Sway said:
Why have all three of you instantly, in a discussion regarding why the population of Britain has differed from the nations of the continental EU in it's approach to political integration, dived directly into prejudice and racism - or even that any assertion of cultural differences automatically means negativity?
I'm just as cosmopolitan and global in my life and work - yet everywhere I go I revel in the cultural and psyche differences between people.
From Scandinavian community collectivism to get through winter manifesting itself today in an immensely strong focus on social capitalism and teamwork, to Mediterranean focus on lifestyle ensuring a healthy disregard for caring too much about the more chore aspects of life.
We do, as a nation, have some key differences from our European cousins. Whilst democracy may be a Greek word, they've only recently re-embraced it. Every single country in continental Europe has been conquered in living memory. Every single continental European nation has been run by a dictator in living memory. Big government is an entirely typical thing for the vast majority of these nations. Apart from the Spanish, Dutch and French, none had much of a global trading outlook during the pre-industrial and industrial revolution era.
All are differences that help shape the national identity and outlook.
They aren't, by being differences, positive or negative. They just are.
And they are to be celebrated.
However, they are a good clue as to why the UK has never been a comfortable fit with the EU. EEC yes.
Good post - I assumed someone with some basic common sense and understanding would soon come along.....I'm just as cosmopolitan and global in my life and work - yet everywhere I go I revel in the cultural and psyche differences between people.
From Scandinavian community collectivism to get through winter manifesting itself today in an immensely strong focus on social capitalism and teamwork, to Mediterranean focus on lifestyle ensuring a healthy disregard for caring too much about the more chore aspects of life.
We do, as a nation, have some key differences from our European cousins. Whilst democracy may be a Greek word, they've only recently re-embraced it. Every single country in continental Europe has been conquered in living memory. Every single continental European nation has been run by a dictator in living memory. Big government is an entirely typical thing for the vast majority of these nations. Apart from the Spanish, Dutch and French, none had much of a global trading outlook during the pre-industrial and industrial revolution era.
All are differences that help shape the national identity and outlook.
They aren't, by being differences, positive or negative. They just are.
And they are to be celebrated.
However, they are a good clue as to why the UK has never been a comfortable fit with the EU. EEC yes.
Dr Jekyll said:
We all know where the word came from, but since Greece was ruled by a dictatorship into the 1970s that's rather beside the point.
A couple of examples of national differences.
crossing a street in Germany as a pedestrian when there is no traffic but the lights are against you. German colleagues seconded to the UK have remarked on the pragmatic approach of the UK working environment and the freedom to improvise.
There was a determined attempt by the EU to mandate air speed indicators for hot air balloons. The fact it was pointless was irrelevant, rules are good so more rules are better.
Although we are historically connected with Europe, the connection is primarily with Scandinavia. Those countries are noticeably more sceptical about European integration than the Mediterranean siesta states, why do you think this is?
So Germany can have a different regulation for pedestrian crossings. How can that possibly be? The Eu sets all our rules, we have no freedom to set them as posted by some on here.A couple of examples of national differences.
crossing a street in Germany as a pedestrian when there is no traffic but the lights are against you. German colleagues seconded to the UK have remarked on the pragmatic approach of the UK working environment and the freedom to improvise.
There was a determined attempt by the EU to mandate air speed indicators for hot air balloons. The fact it was pointless was irrelevant, rules are good so more rules are better.
Although we are historically connected with Europe, the connection is primarily with Scandinavia. Those countries are noticeably more sceptical about European integration than the Mediterranean siesta states, why do you think this is?
Strange that the German approach results in higher efficiency and GDP when we are so much better with our improvisation. It’s almost like we have to make stuff up as we go along because the process was not adequately though through first.
So you point to one silly regulation which did not come into effect. Why did it not btw? We of course have no pointless regulations at all do we. How about totally inconsistent regulations on local authority recycling policies for starters.
I’ve come to the conclusion that many of those that voted remain, are the ones who are self assured, confident, comfortable in their own skins and outward looking and open to others and the evolution that comes with that.
Many leave voters seem to be the direct opposite of all those attributes and want to retain an illusion of what they think a British person is.
Trolleys Thank You said:
Chris Grayling said:
We should do stuff so that angry people don’t get angrier and more fash.
Did they skip ‘appeasement’ at whatever noddy school that f
kwit Grayling went to/stood outside with his head in the railings?It's like binding a whole nation into an indefinite state of servitude in order to prevent a breach of a peace Treaty that didn't even mention the aspects being worried about...
Sway said:
Why have all three of you instantly, in a discussion regarding why the population of Britain has differed from the nations of the continental EU in it's approach to political integration, dived directly into prejudice and racism - or even that any assertion of cultural differences automatically means negativity?
I'm just as cosmopolitan and global in my life and work - yet everywhere I go I revel in the cultural and psyche differences between people.
From Scandinavian community collectivism to get through winter manifesting itself today in an immensely strong focus on social capitalism and teamwork, to Mediterranean focus on lifestyle ensuring a healthy disregard for caring too much about the more chore aspects of life.
We do, as a nation, have some key differences from our European cousins. Whilst democracy may be a Greek word, they've only recently re-embraced it. Every single country in continental Europe has been conquered in living memory. Every single continental European nation has been run by a dictator in living memory. Big government is an entirely typical thing for the vast majority of these nations. Apart from the Spanish, Dutch and French, none had much of a global trading outlook during the pre-industrial and industrial revolution era.
All are differences that help shape the national identity and outlook.
They aren't, by being differences, positive or negative. They just are.
And they are to be celebrated.
However, they are a good clue as to why the UK has never been a comfortable fit with the EU. EEC yes.
Do you honestly believe the bulk of posts on this thread see our cultural differences as a good thing?I'm just as cosmopolitan and global in my life and work - yet everywhere I go I revel in the cultural and psyche differences between people.
From Scandinavian community collectivism to get through winter manifesting itself today in an immensely strong focus on social capitalism and teamwork, to Mediterranean focus on lifestyle ensuring a healthy disregard for caring too much about the more chore aspects of life.
We do, as a nation, have some key differences from our European cousins. Whilst democracy may be a Greek word, they've only recently re-embraced it. Every single country in continental Europe has been conquered in living memory. Every single continental European nation has been run by a dictator in living memory. Big government is an entirely typical thing for the vast majority of these nations. Apart from the Spanish, Dutch and French, none had much of a global trading outlook during the pre-industrial and industrial revolution era.
All are differences that help shape the national identity and outlook.
They aren't, by being differences, positive or negative. They just are.
And they are to be celebrated.
However, they are a good clue as to why the UK has never been a comfortable fit with the EU. EEC yes.
Accepted, it's down to interpretation and biases, we all have them, and mine make it appear to me that quite a lot on this thread comes across as let's find any differences we can, however small and inconsequential, even the ones we can't actually explain but that definitely exist, and use those as reasons that we're just not the same as them so leaving the EU = good.
There are plenty of pragmatic posts, yours is one of them, but there are also plenty which aren't in my opinion and which appear, to me, to see things in much simpler terms of anything EU = distrust and division and "different".
Every few pages it still goes back to some vague crap about individuality and sovereignty and "Britishness" with a bit of WWII thrown in for good measure.
Sorry but I just find it odd.
Robertj21a said:
chrispmartha said:
Can you list the number of ways ‘we’ (not sure why you speak for everyone) are ‘different, than ‘them’?
I suggest that you read the earlier posts.If i missed it please point me to that date and time please as you’ve ducked my questions to you.
Robertj21a said:
chrispmartha said:
Can you list the number of ways ‘we’ (not sure why you speak for everyone) are ‘different, than ‘them’?
I suggest that you read the earlier posts.I can drill it down a bit if you like, why are you different to ‘them’?
Dr Jekyll said:
Far longer history of democracy and free speech.
Historic suspicion of centralised power with a concept that the government ultimately answers to us to us to them.
A culture of 'anything not forbidden is permitted' while mainland Europe tends towards the reverse.
Do you live in the UK?Historic suspicion of centralised power with a concept that the government ultimately answers to us to us to them.
A culture of 'anything not forbidden is permitted' while mainland Europe tends towards the reverse.
I do and the UK is one of the least democratic countries in Europe.
You can now go to jail for singing football songs.
The government is totally centralized except for limited power in Scotland and very limited power in Wales.
We have a political elite which is self replicating and totally divorced from the real world.
Everything is banned or regulated or taxed and we have a nanny in government telling us what we must not do.
Nickgnome said:
Strange that the German approach results in higher efficiency and GDP when we are so much better with our improvisation. It’s almost like we have to make stuff up as we go along because the process was not adequately though through first.
So you recognise there is a difference.Of course the German approach works better in some ways, but ours does in others. Want to mass produce cars? Set up in Germany. Want to design microchips or F1 cars? Try the UK.
These differences are a good thing, but the EU wants to stamp them out in the guise of a 'level playing field. Missing the point that it's the unevenness of the playing field that makes trade beneficial.
The working time directive might be merely a nuisance for a huge manufacturing plant, but it's ridiculous for a small high tech startup.
Mrr T said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Far longer history of democracy and free speech.
Historic suspicion of centralised power with a concept that the government ultimately answers to us to us to them.
A culture of 'anything not forbidden is permitted' while mainland Europe tends towards the reverse.
Do you live in the UK?Historic suspicion of centralised power with a concept that the government ultimately answers to us to us to them.
A culture of 'anything not forbidden is permitted' while mainland Europe tends towards the reverse.
I do and the UK is one of the least democratic countries in Europe.
You can now go to jail for singing football songs.
The government is totally centralized except for limited power in Scotland and very limited power in Wales.
We have a political elite which is self replicating and totally divorced from the real world.
Everything is banned or regulated or taxed and we have a nanny in government telling us what we must not do.
If you mean the Charlton athletic fans then you are being really quite disingenuous calling them just ‘football songs,
Mrr T said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Far longer history of democracy and free speech.
Historic suspicion of centralised power with a concept that the government ultimately answers to us to us to them.
A culture of 'anything not forbidden is permitted' while mainland Europe tends towards the reverse.
Do you live in the UK?Historic suspicion of centralised power with a concept that the government ultimately answers to us to us to them.
A culture of 'anything not forbidden is permitted' while mainland Europe tends towards the reverse.
I do and the UK is one of the least democratic countries in Europe.
You can now go to jail for singing football songs.
The government is totally centralized except for limited power in Scotland and very limited power in Wales.
We have a political elite which is self replicating and totally divorced from the real world.
Everything is banned or regulated or taxed and we have a nanny in government telling us what we must not do.
https://youtu.be/XkCBhKs4faI
Mrr T said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Far longer history of democracy and free speech.
Historic suspicion of centralised power with a concept that the government ultimately answers to us to us to them.
A culture of 'anything not forbidden is permitted' while mainland Europe tends towards the reverse.
Do you live in the UK?Historic suspicion of centralised power with a concept that the government ultimately answers to us to us to them.
A culture of 'anything not forbidden is permitted' while mainland Europe tends towards the reverse.
I do and the UK is one of the least democratic countries in Europe.
You can now go to jail for singing football songs.
The government is totally centralized except for limited power in Scotland and very limited power in Wales.
We have a political elite which is self replicating and totally divorced from the real world.
Everything is banned or regulated or taxed and we have a nanny in government telling us what we must not do.
Well if ever you thought the government were duplicitous liars, your thoughts will be justified by watching the questioning of a government minister on this video.
It is quite extraordinary, even by the very low standards of this incompetent government.
A complete refusal to answer the question, "why was the contract awarded under Reg 32, extreme urgency?", as was also the case by Grayling in parliament.
I've seen a lot of deflection from the Tories, especially May, but I think this sets a new low. There needs to be an inquiry over this, the whole thing stinks. Wont happen though will it. Grayling sails on with his lies and stupidity.
Watch and weep at the corruption.....
https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/10838861...
It is quite extraordinary, even by the very low standards of this incompetent government.
A complete refusal to answer the question, "why was the contract awarded under Reg 32, extreme urgency?", as was also the case by Grayling in parliament.
I've seen a lot of deflection from the Tories, especially May, but I think this sets a new low. There needs to be an inquiry over this, the whole thing stinks. Wont happen though will it. Grayling sails on with his lies and stupidity.
Watch and weep at the corruption.....
https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/10838861...
Dr Jekyll said:
Mrr T said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Far longer history of democracy and free speech.
Historic suspicion of centralised power with a concept that the government ultimately answers to us to us to them.
A culture of 'anything not forbidden is permitted' while mainland Europe tends towards the reverse.
Do you live in the UK?Historic suspicion of centralised power with a concept that the government ultimately answers to us to us to them.
A culture of 'anything not forbidden is permitted' while mainland Europe tends towards the reverse.
I do and the UK is one of the least democratic countries in Europe.
You can now go to jail for singing football songs.
The government is totally centralized except for limited power in Scotland and very limited power in Wales.
We have a political elite which is self replicating and totally divorced from the real world.
Everything is banned or regulated or taxed and we have a nanny in government telling us what we must not do.
Nickgnome said:
In my opinion the Eu has been good for the UK
FoM has enabled significant growth which would have been constrained by lack of resource otherwise.
Ability to trade within the Eu unemcumbered.
Standardisation across a wide range of products and components.
Health and Safety and working time directive.
Grants to areas of the UK which would not be have been received otherwise. Remember it is those areas that submit the request and then manage the project once granted.
Collegiate projects and research.
UK employee's can opt out of the working time directive. FoM has enabled significant growth which would have been constrained by lack of resource otherwise.
Ability to trade within the Eu unemcumbered.
Standardisation across a wide range of products and components.
Health and Safety and working time directive.
Grants to areas of the UK which would not be have been received otherwise. Remember it is those areas that submit the request and then manage the project once granted.
Collegiate projects and research.
Edited by Nickgnome on Saturday 12th January 11:49
My industry couldn't function working to the EU WTD.
Grants are using our own money. Why wouldn't they be available post Brexit? We already have a system of grants via national lottery funding and are more than capable of expanding funding once state aid restrictions are removed from the government.
Dr Jekyll said:
Mrr T said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Far longer history of democracy and free speech.
Historic suspicion of centralised power with a concept that the government ultimately answers to us to us to them.
A culture of 'anything not forbidden is permitted' while mainland Europe tends towards the reverse.
Do you live in the UK?Historic suspicion of centralised power with a concept that the government ultimately answers to us to us to them.
A culture of 'anything not forbidden is permitted' while mainland Europe tends towards the reverse.
I do and the UK is one of the least democratic countries in Europe.
You can now go to jail for singing football songs.
The government is totally centralized except for limited power in Scotland and very limited power in Wales.
We have a political elite which is self replicating and totally divorced from the real world.
Everything is banned or regulated or taxed and we have a nanny in government telling us what we must not do.
In fact most of these short coming long predate the EU and none are caused by by the EU.
Dr Jekyll said:
So you recognise there is a difference.
Of course the German approach works better in some ways, but ours does in others. Want to mass produce cars? Set up in Germany. Want to design microchips or F1 cars? Try the UK.
These differences are a good thing, but the EU wants to stamp them out in the guise of a 'level playing field. Missing the point that it's the unevenness of the playing field that makes trade beneficial.
The working time directive might be merely a nuisance for a huge manufacturing plant, but it's ridiculous for a small high tech startup.
We are all different but i do not accept there is an overriding national difference. Of course the German approach works better in some ways, but ours does in others. Want to mass produce cars? Set up in Germany. Want to design microchips or F1 cars? Try the UK.
These differences are a good thing, but the EU wants to stamp them out in the guise of a 'level playing field. Missing the point that it's the unevenness of the playing field that makes trade beneficial.
The working time directive might be merely a nuisance for a huge manufacturing plant, but it's ridiculous for a small high tech startup.
Centres of excellence is a great think. They are however not nationalistic. Your F1 example is a case in point. The teams are made up of many Europeans and others. The Eu has never hindered that in fact FoM has assisted greatly.
The Level playing field thing simply makes no sense. Being able to trade in the Eu on level terms is massively beneficial. Please remember there is no such thing as Free trade. All nations use rules, currency, tax to skew that playing field.
Why do you say the Eu. We are the Eu and have been for 40 years. It’s that them and us thing again with which i think you have a problem.
As to the working time directive. I can assure you it makes no impact whatsoever to small start ups. I undertook some work for a couple during my wind down years.
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