Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 2)
Discussion
Tuna said:
Sway said:
Mortar, how do you think billions of dollars worth of goods from China each year get CE marks?
That CE mark stands for 'Chinese Engineering' - it just happens to be in the exact same font as the one that means Conformité Européenne.
Anyone trusting a CE mark from China deserves to get what they get, tbh.
We have an entire business division that buys bulk material from China, and reprocesses it. On paper- same material in, same material out. SDS and spec sheets are the same. You'd be nuts to use the Chinese stuff as raw materials for anything important.
One of our receivers got some "animal content free" material from China (important for certain manufacturing). No paperwork with it, so he contacted the supplier.
It went like this:
"Is this material animal content free?"
"Oh, did you order animal content free?"
"Yes"
"Then its animal content free."
"I need the paperwork"
"What would you like the paperwork to say?"
And then he sent the material to be destroyed........
Nuts to even have considered ordering that type of material from there to begin with. But like all procurement departments, as long as the specs on the PO match, they'll hone in on the cheapest, regardless of source.
M.
dan98 said:
Sad to find most British products disappearing from the supermarket shelves in Germany and apparently across the rest of the EU. (everything else continues to be fully stocked though funnily enough)
Germany imports from Britain overall in 'freefall' now according to Reuters.
However much more relevantly, Daily Mail Brexit voters wetting themselves with excitement over being able to use imperial measurements again, thereby ensuring future incompatibility with the rest of Europe.
All going swimmingly.
Not a problem here ! Our roads are still clogged with German cars Plenty with this year’s plates and the shelves are full in Waitrose Germany imports from Britain overall in 'freefall' now according to Reuters.
However much more relevantly, Daily Mail Brexit voters wetting themselves with excitement over being able to use imperial measurements again, thereby ensuring future incompatibility with the rest of Europe.
All going swimmingly.
Maybe we are trying to supply our new trading partners and Germany isn’t that important anymore!!
Sway said:
Don't ever look at the place of manufacture for most of the goods you've plugged into your walls...
Jesus wept. You've just suggested the vast majority of the goods shipped into Europe from China have fraudulent CE marks.
Very few CE marks in the US Jesus wept. You've just suggested the vast majority of the goods shipped into Europe from China have fraudulent CE marks.
Second part of your post? Muddy posting from you again.
Not all stuff needs CE marking. Of that that does, I have no hard data. But yes, if it was the "vast majority" was fraudulently marked I would not be surprised, at all.
Even those that have legit CE certs, in a significant number of cases, the testing/checks have never been carried out. It's an issue in the medical devices industry specifically.
M.
Mortarboard said:
Sway said:
Don't ever look at the place of manufacture for most of the goods you've plugged into your walls...
Jesus wept. You've just suggested the vast majority of the goods shipped into Europe from China have fraudulent CE marks.
Very few CE marks in the US Jesus wept. You've just suggested the vast majority of the goods shipped into Europe from China have fraudulent CE marks.
Second part of your post? Muddy posting from you again.
Not all stuff needs CE marking. Of that that does, I have no hard data. But yes, if it was the "vast majority" was fraudulently marked I would not be surprised, at all.
Even those that have legit CE certs, in a significant number of cases, the testing/checks have never been carried out. It's an issue in the medical devices industry specifically.
M.
Check for the FCC marks then, and anything plugged into walls in either EU or US needs a CE or FCC mark respectively. The vast majority of those goods are made in China.
You've jumped the shark.
Sway said:
Keep digging...
Check for the FCC marks then, and anything plugged into walls in either EU or US needs a CE or FCC mark respectively. The vast majority of those goods are made in China.
You've jumped the shark.
To "achieve" a CE mark, you just have to print it onto the label Check for the FCC marks then, and anything plugged into walls in either EU or US needs a CE or FCC mark respectively. The vast majority of those goods are made in China.
You've jumped the shark.
In my limited experience (as a user, not a tester), a large number of electrical appliances bought in the UK from Chinese suppliers *have* CE marks but are not in any way compliant.
For example, for one many can find in their homes, I've bought numerous cat water fountains from a number of otherwise-seemingly-reputable UK suppliers. All are supplied with an AC "power supply" that looks like a normal "wall wart" DC PSU. Upon opening and inspection, all of these "power supplies" are nothing more than step-down transformers with no other protective electronics. They are entirely unsuitable to be used in the UK, and are incapable of passing a CE certification. All are marked with the CE mark.
Did you also know that a lot of consumer products are marked with a "CE" marke that stands for "China Export" and looks - to the casual observer - like it is a "real" CE mark? No. Most don't, so these products are routinely sold.
Have a read of this if you'd like to learn a little more: https://support.ce-check.eu/hc/en-us/articles/3600...
Sway said:
Keep digging...
Check for the FCC marks then, and anything plugged into walls in either EU or US needs a CE or FCC mark respectively. The vast majority of those goods are made in China.
You've jumped the shark.
So you're hoping that UK CE marking will be taken as seriously as Chinese CE marking then? Check for the FCC marks then, and anything plugged into walls in either EU or US needs a CE or FCC mark respectively. The vast majority of those goods are made in China.
You've jumped the shark.
Seriously Sway, your commitment to the cause is admirable. You'd put a Russian Twitter bot to shame
M.
skwdenyer said:
To "achieve" a CE mark, you just have to print it onto the label
Hallelujah!British manufacturing is saved!
Products have different levels of requirement for certification. No factory will be legally printing CE marks without following them - even if some lower risk goods are certified via a periodic factory audit.
When following those processes, unless there is fraud (which isn't alleged for British manufacturers - and you're both ignoring all the high quality, fully compliant goods from China) then goods are just as compliant as any made in the EU.
For the products we make, there isn't an EU based manufacturer, yet they are subject to the highest levels of CoC verification. That's not changing, and no EU customer is going to look at those products as being in any way effected from a compliant perspective by Brexit.
The only effect they've seen so far (at least, the European customers) is a price reduction.
Sway said:
skwdenyer said:
To "achieve" a CE mark, you just have to print it onto the label
Hallelujah!British manufacturing is saved!
Products have different levels of requirement for certification. No factory will be legally printing CE marks without following them - even if some lower risk goods are certified via a periodic factory audit.
When following those processes, unless there is fraud (which isn't alleged for British manufacturers - and you're both ignoring all the high quality, fully compliant goods from China) then goods are just as compliant as any made in the EU.
For the products we make, there isn't an EU based manufacturer, yet they are subject to the highest levels of CoC verification. That's not changing, and no EU customer is going to look at those products as being in any way effected from a compliant perspective by Brexit.
The only effect they've seen so far (at least, the European customers) is a price reduction.
And I do hope your QA folks have a more cynical view of component suppliers than you do. For your customers' sake, if nothing else.
M.
blueg33 said:
Sway said:
There is however zero reason why it should take four weeks longer than normal to transport.
Even agrigoods such as the ones Sunbeam aren't being that effected, as per Sunbeam's post.
If you're genuinely experiencing those sorts of delays drop me a PM, I might be able to identify the problem.
Thanks. It is a genuine issue. Not sure my logistics director is on PH. He is the one with the detail. Even agrigoods such as the ones Sunbeam aren't being that effected, as per Sunbeam's post.
If you're genuinely experiencing those sorts of delays drop me a PM, I might be able to identify the problem.
Envelope containing garment swing tags sent to NL from UK, by Royal Mail. CN22 provided. Goods value 50p. Envelope held by Dutch customs. Upon enquiry through our Royal Mail account manager, asked to provide full commercial invoice (for 50p of goods). This was provided. Envelope is still held by Dutch customs. This is now into its 4th week without resolution.
2 boxes of goods sent to NL from UK by DHL. Goods value approx €500. Full commercial invoice and documentation sent provided. Consignment is on DDP incoterms, so no customer payment involvement necessary. Goods held for 2 weeks. In 3rd week, 1 of 2 boxes released and eventually reach recipient. 2nd box takes a further 10 days to be released. No additional documentation requested by customs, nor required to release them. They were just held for an arbitrary period of time.
These are regular consignments, nothing "special" about them. These are entirely Brexit-related (because, yes, before Brexit there would be no need for customs). We send regularly all over the world, and have never (in 30 years) experienced anything like it, to any jurisdiction.
I agree with you, there's no legitimate reason this should be happening. But happening it most definitely is.
There is a simple solution - avoid Dutch customs...
As Sunbeam has noted, as well as others, for some reason the Dutch are being utterly ridiculous at the moment irrespective of whether proper process has been followed.
Consider the Dutch are the gateway into Europe for goods, which typically attract 2% inspection/controls - and just your anecdotal experience shows something is rotten in Rotterdam.
As Sunbeam has noted, as well as others, for some reason the Dutch are being utterly ridiculous at the moment irrespective of whether proper process has been followed.
Consider the Dutch are the gateway into Europe for goods, which typically attract 2% inspection/controls - and just your anecdotal experience shows something is rotten in Rotterdam.
Sway said:
There is a simple solution - avoid Dutch customs...
As Sunbeam has noted, as well as others, for some reason the Dutch are being utterly ridiculous at the moment irrespective of whether proper process has been followed.
Consider the Dutch are the gateway into Europe for goods, which typically attract 2% inspection/controls - and just your anecdotal experience shows something is rotten in Rotterdam.
I think we can say with some certainty that this is a direct impact of Brexit, however.As Sunbeam has noted, as well as others, for some reason the Dutch are being utterly ridiculous at the moment irrespective of whether proper process has been followed.
Consider the Dutch are the gateway into Europe for goods, which typically attract 2% inspection/controls - and just your anecdotal experience shows something is rotten in Rotterdam.
skwdenyer said:
Sway said:
There is a simple solution - avoid Dutch customs...
As Sunbeam has noted, as well as others, for some reason the Dutch are being utterly ridiculous at the moment irrespective of whether proper process has been followed.
Consider the Dutch are the gateway into Europe for goods, which typically attract 2% inspection/controls - and just your anecdotal experience shows something is rotten in Rotterdam.
I think we can say with some certainty that this is a direct impact of Brexit, however.As Sunbeam has noted, as well as others, for some reason the Dutch are being utterly ridiculous at the moment irrespective of whether proper process has been followed.
Consider the Dutch are the gateway into Europe for goods, which typically attract 2% inspection/controls - and just your anecdotal experience shows something is rotten in Rotterdam.
Not entirely sure you can criticise the vote due to one nation's customs forces choosing to ignore the rules/agreement.
Mortarboard said:
And all of that has to be done to accredited standards by Conformite Europeene. Usually this is achieved by CE certifying National Standards bodies as competent to do so, who then in turn audit/manage the certification standards from individual bodies. Currently the UK has this.
However, in the current climate, there is no commitment from the UK to maintain support at National Standards, and certainly no commitment to continue to maintain standards equivalent. Therefore, you'd not want a UK certified CE certification - as you have no idea how long it will be considered good for. When your product is being made from sub-parts that are no longer in an environment that is fully CE compliant, the risk of having a non-compliance shoots up massively. As time goes on, a UK CE certification will have less and less perceived value, and have higher "risk". For something as cheap in the overall scheme of things (in terms of product development), no business worth it's salt will "bother" with UK CE certification.
That explains a great deal.......However, in the current climate, there is no commitment from the UK to maintain support at National Standards, and certainly no commitment to continue to maintain standards equivalent. Therefore, you'd not want a UK certified CE certification - as you have no idea how long it will be considered good for. When your product is being made from sub-parts that are no longer in an environment that is fully CE compliant, the risk of having a non-compliance shoots up massively. As time goes on, a UK CE certification will have less and less perceived value, and have higher "risk". For something as cheap in the overall scheme of things (in terms of product development), no business worth it's salt will "bother" with UK CE certification.
Mortarboard said:
But it seems there's plenty of folks who think their opinion can move mountains, and all these practical issues disappear. But reality doesn't give a fig about their opinions.
The reality is that your posts demonstrate gaps in your understanding of the CE accreditation process and the differing ways CE compliance can be tested / confirmed / verified / demonstrated.Mortarboard said:
Until the UK accepts these issues and starts to deal with them, then the longer it will take to get onto doing business the "new" way.
Not quite. Some don't understand these issues fully and consequently don't yet understand how to deal with them. It is taking them longer to get onto doing business the "new" way. Mortarboard said:
There's a significant number of folks under the impression that the only thing "holding the UK back" was membership of the EU.
Who, specifically?Mortarboard said:
If they think the UK isn't going to have to make changes to adapt and take advantage of the opportunities of being outside the EU, they're living in lala land.
"they think the UK isn't going to have to make changes" is strawman.dan98 said:
However much more relevantly, Daily Mail Brexit voters wetting themselves with excitement over being able to use imperial measurements again, thereby ensuring future incompatibility with the rest of Europe.
Hooray. I'll be able to order a "pint" of beer in a pub again. Oh, wait...https://newsthump.com/2021/09/17/boris-johnson-for...
Just been speaking to a friend of mine who was at the Southampton boat show.
Apparently now that we are outside of Europe,we can keep a boat in Europe without paying the vat.
Where he was looking at buying a £7-£800k boat,all of a sudden he is looking at £1m boats.
Must admit if your in that world it’s definitely a benefit,and the 1st one I have seen.
All the others constantly being quoted about self governance etc are just a load of boxxocks IMO.
Paul
Apparently now that we are outside of Europe,we can keep a boat in Europe without paying the vat.
Where he was looking at buying a £7-£800k boat,all of a sudden he is looking at £1m boats.
Must admit if your in that world it’s definitely a benefit,and the 1st one I have seen.
All the others constantly being quoted about self governance etc are just a load of boxxocks IMO.
Paul
silentbrown said:
dan98 said:
However much more relevantly, Daily Mail Brexit voters wetting themselves with excitement over being able to use imperial measurements again, thereby ensuring future incompatibility with the rest of Europe.
Hooray. I'll be able to order a "pint" of beer in a pub again. Oh, wait...https://newsthump.com/2021/09/17/boris-johnson-for...
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