How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 11)

[crankedup]

banjowilly said:

p1stonhead said:

You forgot about;

‘Absolutely no one is talking about threatening our place in the single market’

This is Andy we're talking about, who robustly told us yesterday Cameron was sent packing from Brussels in 2015 with a 'flea in his ear', and disappeared when it was pointed out he wasn't even slightly.

You are dealing with the political equivalent of crusaders. It doesn't matter how often you present the reality, provide the evidence, contradict with actual facts, they will simply swat it away like a fly if it doesn't meet with their preconceived narrative. This place is packed with them but in fairness, they are fun to watch.

Which is irrelevant waffle based upon your own political bias. From 17.4 million leave voters I say this forum is woefully unrepresented. However, that is of no importance. Leave voters have no need to walk the streets, block roads and wave silly placards demanding attention to themselves as though they are important. Equally fun to watch.
The issue is now the upcoming G.E. the Tories will form a pact with TBP. Now that Parliament has declared its intentions of forming alliances I hope that the Tory TBP alliance will finally achieve the E.U. exit voted for on the referendum 2016.

[Camoradi]

What a mess.

To me, leaving the EU was a simple question we were all asked back in 2016. It took me 3 minutes out of walking the dog to do, and then I carried on with life as normal. I didn't assume the identity of remainer or leaver thereafter. I just answered a question with a cross in a box, as did everyone who voted.

Irrespective of which way any individual voted, I can't imagine many people think there is a single member of parliament of any party who has dealt with this in a sensible, honest and pragmatic way.

A remain result would have at least been within the capabilities of our politicians, as it wouldn't have required them to do anything.

It has been a shameful display of dishonesty and opportunism from start to finish, and we all, leave and remain voters alike, deserve better.

[wisbech]

bobbo89 said:

p1stonhead said:

Well that seems obvious, it’s why he’s done fk all since he got into office....

It's simply his plan, tie everything up at our end in order to go into negotiations in what he believes is the strongest possible position.

He doesn't need to do anything as he cant really do anything until he's got a grip on parliament, something he's not going to manage it seems!

So presume he will now go to plan B - present to the E.U. how the backstop is not needed.

[banjowilly]

andymadmak said:

banjowilly said:

more guff

No temper here Banjo. Just ignoring you. Your version of things is twisted to say the least. You're just not worth engaging with.

The retort of the drowning man. Face it Andy, you're one of the terminally convinced, immune to the evidence around you, evidence that is provided too.

Acceptance is an important stage in the grief process & I'd climb on board sharpish if I were you.

[bobbo89]

wisbech said:

So presume he will now go to plan B - present to the E.U. how the backstop is not needed.

Isn't plan B a GE?

[ClaphamGT3]

banjowilly said:

andymadmak said:

banjowilly said:

more guff

No temper here Banjo. Just ignoring you. Your version of things is twisted to say the least. You're just not worth engaging with.

The retort of the drowning man. Face it Andy, you're one of the terminally convinced, immune to the evidence around you, evidence that is provided too.

Acceptance is an important stage in the grief process & I'd climb on board sharpish if I were you.

I’d caution against calling the eventual outcome just yet; there is a long way to go - and I mean years - before we finally know how Brexit will play out

[Mrr T]

Garvin said:

Andy, calm down. Everyone knows this, at least anyone capable of rational thought. The Remainers don't want a true Brexit deal they want to remain, revoke A50 back to the, so called, status quo. Failing that, May's terrible WA will do for them as it isn't really leaving. You are wearing out your keyboard for no real purpose. If these Remainers really wanted a decent deal they would put some energy into helping draft out alternative approaches to the issues that caused the WA to be voted down not once, but three times. Not one has, they have just thrown bricks at those who do and believe that the backstop is absolutely necessary, no questions asked - it demonstrates beyond any doubt their true intentions, yet they accuse others of being disingenuous!

So remainders are in your view not capable of rational thought but you really want us to come up with a plan for leave?

[jonnyb]

A Winner Is You said:

andymadmak said:

Garvin said:

andymadmak said:

. . . . . . . Honestly guys, I am utterly stunned that anyone imagines that the EU is going to negotiate sensibly on a new WA if we take No Deal off the table. . . . . . . . .

Andy, calm down. Everyone knows this, at least anyone capable of rational thought. The Remainers don't want a true Brexit deal they want to remain, revoke A50 back to the, so called, status quo. Failing that, May's terrible WA will do for them as it isn't really leaving. You are wearing out your keyboard for no real purpose. If these Remainers really wanted a decent deal they would put some energy into helping draft out alternative approaches to the issues that caused the WA to be voted down not once, but three times. Not one has, they have just thrown bricks at those who do and believe that the backstop is absolutely necessary, no questions asked - it demonstrates beyond any doubt their true intentions, yet they accuse others of being disingenuous!

Sadly, I think you are correct.

It's been the plan from day one, and anyone who claims otherwise is either lying or terminally naive.

I disagree, but there needs to be compromise.

And you only have to look through the 11 volumes of this thread to see how difficult that will be.

[crankedup]

andymadmak said:

Garvin said:

andymadmak said:

. . . . . . . Honestly guys, I am utterly stunned that anyone imagines that the EU is going to negotiate sensibly on a new WA if we take No Deal off the table. . . . . . . . .

Andy, calm down. Everyone knows this, at least anyone capable of rational thought. The Remainers don't want a true Brexit deal they want to remain, revoke A50 back to the, so called, status quo. Failing that, May's terrible WA will do for them as it isn't really leaving. You are wearing out your keyboard for no real purpose. If these Remainers really wanted a decent deal they would put some energy into helping draft out alternative approaches to the issues that caused the WA to be voted down not once, but three times. Not one has, they have just thrown bricks at those who do and believe that the backstop is absolutely necessary, no questions asked - it demonstrates beyond any doubt their true intentions, yet they accuse others of being disingenuous!

Sadly, I think you are correct.

It is certainly correct, just comes the time to say it, or in this situation type it. We are witnessing the complete dismantling of our centuries old democracy which will take decades to rebuild. All for one purpose, to disregard the National referendum result 2016, a result unacceptable to those who cannot understand how to respect other persons political pov.

[ClaphamGT3]

crankedup said:

andymadmak said:

Garvin said:

andymadmak said:

. . . . . . . Honestly guys, I am utterly stunned that anyone imagines that the EU is going to negotiate sensibly on a new WA if we take No Deal off the table. . . . . . . . .

Andy, calm down. Everyone knows this, at least anyone capable of rational thought. The Remainers don't want a true Brexit deal they want to remain, revoke A50 back to the, so called, status quo. Failing that, May's terrible WA will do for them as it isn't really leaving. You are wearing out your keyboard for no real purpose. If these Remainers really wanted a decent deal they would put some energy into helping draft out alternative approaches to the issues that caused the WA to be voted down not once, but three times. Not one has, they have just thrown bricks at those who do and believe that the backstop is absolutely necessary, no questions asked - it demonstrates beyond any doubt their true intentions, yet they accuse others of being disingenuous!

Sadly, I think you are correct.

It is certainly correct, just comes the time to say it, or in this situation type it. We are witnessing the complete dismantling of our centuries old democracy which will take decades to rebuild. All for one purpose, to disregard the National referendum result 2016, a result unacceptable to those who cannot understand how to respect other persons political pov.

Get a grip. No one has voted against Brexit. The majority of the House of Commons have voted against a no-deal Brexit

[Dr Jekyll]

ClaphamGT3 said:

Get a grip. No one has voted against Brexit. The majority of the House of Commons have voted against a no-deal Brexit

Which amounts to the same thing.

[wc98]

banjowilly said:

andymadmak said:

I ignored your response yesterday because it was utter piffle. Don't imagine that todays output from you will be of any additional merit

Temper temper, you're showing a bit of petticoat there, flower.

And by way of proving my point, here is yesterday's (note the apostophe) response, complete with linked evidence. Piffle that, Andrea.

banjowilly said:

andymadmak said:

I think that dream died for many when Cameron came back from Brussels with a flea in his ear, having asked for what seemed to many to be perfectly reasonable things. At that moment the blinkers came off.

Okey dokey, you want the five dollar argument, fine by me. I've snipped the relevant passage from the opus here. What you may think reasonable is a matter for you, a sample of one. I dispute the factual basis of a 'flea in the ear' all day long.

Cameron went to Brussels with four demands. An exemption from ever closer union for the UK in future treaties, which he got without repatriation of EU or social law, a sticking point for leavers but heavily overblown imo. A curb on migrant access to benefits & social services, which he got with some compromises in the face of strong opposition from Poland & a couple of other member states. Safeguards against material economic disadvantages outside of the Euro zone, such as exemption from bailouts, which again, he won.

And lastly, a reduction in burdensome regulation within the single market for which he was offered much more than he demanded.

It's so very easy to type out a derogatory phrase like 'flea in the ear' and leave it there with a little pejorative commentary and yet when you get into the detail. the reality is very different, so yes, Brooking's wry smile is well warranted.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referend...

you seem to forget none of what was promised was adopted into eu law. all cameron got was words to alluding to commitment but the eu would still have the final say.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/19/eu-dea...

[Garvin]

Mrr T said:

Garvin said:

Andy, calm down. Everyone knows this, at least anyone capable of rational thought. The Remainers don't want a true Brexit deal they want to remain, revoke A50 back to the, so called, status quo. Failing that, May's terrible WA will do for them as it isn't really leaving. You are wearing out your keyboard for no real purpose. If these Remainers really wanted a decent deal they would put some energy into helping draft out alternative approaches to the issues that caused the WA to be voted down not once, but three times. Not one has, they have just thrown bricks at those who do and believe that the backstop is absolutely necessary, no questions asked - it demonstrates beyond any doubt their true intentions, yet they accuse others of being disingenuous!

So remainders are in your view not capable of rational thought but you really want us to come up with a plan for leave?

You, as always, miss the point due to your struggle with simple comprehension. I'll take you through it one step at a time.

1. I never said that Remainers aren't capable of rational thought, you just made that up. No surprise, it is concrete evidence of your lack of simple comprehension. I still think it is both a lack of education and intellect on your part because you still persist in making primary school spelling mistakes in your posts (and they most certainly aren't simple typos or autocorrects).

2. I stated, in different words but I'll make it easy for you here, that anyone (that's Remainers, Leavers and neutrals alike) who is capable of rational thought knows that the EU will not budge to a different deal if and when no deal is taken off the table.

3. If those rational thinking Remainers were honest about getting a deal, apart from the current WA, through Parliament then at least some of them would try to help define alternative approaches/solutions but they haven't.

4. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that they don't really want a deal, they just want to remain full stop but are not being honest about it pretending that they somehow want a deal. They are no different to the Leavers they throw insults at.

Now have you got it?

[don'tbesilly]

Dr Jekyll said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

Get a grip. No one has voted against Brexit. The majority of the House of Commons have voted against a no-deal Brexit

Which amounts to the same thing.

It's fairly clear to most a deal is an irrelevance in the grand scheme of things, the plan is to stop Brexit, even with a deal the efforts to thwart Brexit will continue.

[V10leptoquark]

andymadmak said:

Honestly guys, I am utterly stunned that anyone imagines that the EU is going to negotiate sensibly on a new WA if we take No Deal off the table.

True.
Barnier has already mentioned that the EU has no incentive to change its position because they know parliament have still have power to vote for remain.
Its only when there is a 100% fact that "no deal" can happen that will allow both sides to compromise and formulate a 'deal' scenario.

But for MPs this simple fact seems to escape them. I believe it escapes them because they are voting in parliament to create a "remain" status. With that it means the UK is not able to leave and will not leave "under their watch" so to speak.

Foolishly though, they are forgetting the fact that the british public will have their say next term election. So the remain MPs that control parliament at the moment will have their short term victory, but the public will vote for brexit comprehensively given their next chance.
The remain vote is always going to be split between the murky left but the leave vote will not be split - the brexit party if they have any sense will bow out to the tories (unless of course they also become a part of remain - which will split the remain vote even further).

[Garvin]

ClaphamGT3 said:

Get a grip. No one has voted against Brexit. The majority of the House of Commons have voted against a no-deal Brexit

I seriously think you are insulting your own intelligence here.

The bare facts support what you are saying, but the underlying reasoning is different and, deep down, you know it, don't you.

It's no difference to BoJo proroguing Parliament. The bare facts are for the preparation of a Queen's speech such that he, as a new PM with a new Cabinet, can outline his administration's intentions over the next Parliamentary period. The underlying reasoning, which everyone knows deep down, is to restrict, as much as possible, debate on Brexit.

[p1stonhead]

Garvin said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

Get a grip. No one has voted against Brexit. The majority of the House of Commons have voted against a no-deal Brexit

I seriously think you are insulting your own intelligence here.

The bare facts support what you are saying, but the underlying reasoning is different and, deep down, you know it, don't you.

It's no difference to BoJo proroguing Parliament. The bare facts are for the preparation of a Queen's speech such that he, as a new PM with a new Cabinet, can outline his administration's intentions over the next Parliamentary period. The underlying reasoning, which everyone knows deep down, is to restrict, as much as possible, debate on Brexit.

How many of the rebel’s voted for the withdrawal agreement therefore a Brexit with a deal?

[sunbeam alpine]

slow_poke said:

JustALooseScrew said:

Helicopter123 said:

The Conservative party elected a buffoon into number 10 - what did they expect was going to happen?

You are aware that it is Cummins running the entire show? Yes? Good. Boris is just the front of camera presenter.

Cummins, an unelected bureaucrat? Running things, telling the PM & Cabinet what to do?

Oh, the irony.

It's OK - I've posted this before - but for the Brexiters Cummings is perfectly acceptable. Unelected bureaucrats are fine, so long as they're not nasty foreign ones...

[wisbech]

bobbo89 said:

wisbech said:

So presume he will now go to plan B - present to the E.U. how the backstop is not needed.

Isn't plan B a GE?

Yes, but if the opposition take that off the table, he now needs a plan C. Which is to prove we don't need the backstop.

[wc98]

p1stonhead said:

How many of the rebel’s voted for the withdrawal agreement therefore a Brexit with a deal?

safe in the knowledge that it was never ever going to pass.