Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)

[CivicDuties]

andymadmak said:

I think you make the mistake, probably intentionally, of saying that just because things haven't happened yet then that is concrete proof that those things can never happen. I don't share that view. The EU is a long term political project that has a stated aim of ever closer union (to address your first point) . Our opt outs were always precarious in my view (you may disagree) and the gradual extension of QMV, which is necessary for the smooth running of the EU imho, only exacerbates that situation.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary...
This is an informative site for this kind of thing.

4 years after leaving is no time frame really, but some like you are insistent that we judge things in absolute terms now. I don't understand that. We had 40 odd years of the CM/EEC/EU development to judge things by and to assess the direction of travel.

Cutting out earliest posts here to stop it from becoming a mass nested nightmare.

Nobody is saying these things can never happen. What I'm saying is that they haven't happened, show no signs of being close to happening, and even if they did happen that we, the UK, as members, would always have been in a position to negotiate terms, as we always did over those 40 years you speak of, which is evidence of how we managed to participate in setting this "direction of travel", particularly with regard to our own position. Blowing up all the benefits of membership in order achieve what we already had (a strong position to opt out of, or veto, things we didn't like) is where the mistake is.

8 years is the critical number in terms of judging how the predictions and claims made at the referendum have panned out, in terms of how the EU was going to evolve. It's a long time for none of it to have happened.

[Mrr T]

Mortarboard said:

Mrr T said:

Murph7355 said:

Mortarboard said:

Joining schengen would fix a lot of that friction fir traveller's.

M.

We were never in it. Why start now?

You cannot be in Schengen without being in the SM.

You sure about that?

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/scheng...

M.

Yes. Any EU+ citizen can live for as long as they wish in any EU+ country so long as they are exercising a treaty right. Normally FOML under the SM.

Any non EU+ who has visa free entry to EU+ countries is restricted to 90 days in 180 days. That's why your UK passport is stamped when you enter the Schengen area. For that reason the UK cannot join Schengen unless it joins the SM.

[Mortarboard]

Mrr T said:

Yes. Any EU+ citizen can live for as long as they wish in any EU+ country so long as they are exercising a treaty right. Normally FOML under the SM.

Any non EU+ who has visa free entry to EU+ countries is restricted to 90 days in 180 days. That's why your UK passport is stamped when you enter the Schengen area. For that reason the UK cannot join Schengen unless it joins the SM.

The "L" stands for labour.
Schengen gives neither residency nor work rights.

Uk joining the schengen would also help with that little "illegal immigration" problem.

M.

[Deesee]

Mortarboard said:

The "L" stands for labour.
Schengen gives neither residency nor work rights.

Uk joining the schengen would also help with that little "illegal immigration" problem.

M.

Cant see us joining schengen, and IMO the "illegal immigration" issue is far bigger issue in the EU. It's the uncontrolled 'legal migration" thats put pressure on UK services.

However I can see us partnering up with Frontex (especially on shared borders) with a far more formal role and actually rejoining Europol in full.

Frontex would only require one international border facility and could comfortably have officers from the EU/UK on joint mandates, and save the issue of have other eu 'sovereign' nations on shared borders (ie Spanish Border control in Gibraltar).

[Mortarboard]

Agreed.

It will be interesting to see how the eu-wide approach to asylum/immigration works out.

M.

[Mrr T]

Mortarboard said:

Mrr T said:

Yes. Any EU+ citizen can live for as long as they wish in any EU+ country so long as they are exercising a treaty right. Normally FOML under the SM.

Any non EU+ who has visa free entry to EU+ countries is restricted to 90 days in 180 days. That's why your UK passport is stamped when you enter the Schengen area. For that reason the UK cannot join Schengen unless it joins the SM.

The "L" stands for labour.
Schengen gives neither residency nor work rights.

Uk joining the schengen would also help with that little "illegal immigration" problem.

M.

If the UK was part of schengen how would the schengen countries monitor the 90/180 day rule. Schengen does not give residency right but with no control on entry and exit a brit could enter and never leave.

[CivicDuties]

Deesee said:

Cant see us joining schengen, and IMO the "illegal immigration" issue is far bigger issue in the EU. It's the uncontrolled 'legal migration" thats put pressure on UK services.

However I can see us partnering up with Frontex (especially on shared borders) with a far more formal role and actually rejoining Europol in full.

Frontex would only require one international border facility and could comfortably have officers from the EU/UK on joint mandates, and save the issue of have other eu 'sovereign' nations on shared borders (ie Spanish Border control in Gibraltar).

Tell us more about the bit in bold. I'm surprised to hear that anyone can come to the UK from anywhere at any time and legally reside in the country.

[Mortarboard]

Mrr T said:

Mortarboard said:

Mrr T said:

Yes. Any EU+ citizen can live for as long as they wish in any EU+ country so long as they are exercising a treaty right. Normally FOML under the SM.

Any non EU+ who has visa free entry to EU+ countries is restricted to 90 days in 180 days. That's why your UK passport is stamped when you enter the Schengen area. For that reason the UK cannot join Schengen unless it joins the SM.

The "L" stands for labour.
Schengen gives neither residency nor work rights.

Uk joining the schengen would also help with that little "illegal immigration" problem.

M.

If the UK was part of schengen how would the schengen countries monitor the 90/180 day rule. Schengen does not give residency right but with no control on entry and exit a brit could enter and never leave.

Same as they do for any other entry, under free movement.

M.

[Mrr T]

Mortarboard said:

Mrr T said:

Mortarboard said:

Mrr T said:

Yes. Any EU+ citizen can live for as long as they wish in any EU+ country so long as they are exercising a treaty right. Normally FOML under the SM.

Any non EU+ who has visa free entry to EU+ countries is restricted to 90 days in 180 days. That's why your UK passport is stamped when you enter the Schengen area. For that reason the UK cannot join Schengen unless it joins the SM.

The "L" stands for labour.
Schengen gives neither residency nor work rights.

Uk joining the schengen would also help with that little "illegal immigration" problem.

M.

If the UK was part of schengen how would the schengen countries monitor the 90/180 day rule. Schengen does not give residency right but with no control on entry and exit a brit could enter and never leave.

Same as they do for any other entry, under free movement.

M.

You do seem to be struggling with a simple concept. Free movement between schengen countries works because there are no restrictions on how long you can remain in any country. If the UK was in schengen a UK passport would not be stamped on entry. So no one would know when you have entered or left. So no one would know if you broke the 90/180 day law.

[Deesee]

CivicDuties said:

Tell us more about the bit in bold. I'm surprised to hear that anyone can come to the UK from anywhere at any time and legally reside in the country.

The 9 million EU pre settled status, and the supermarkets estimating the UK is feeding 85m people may come as a shock for some, even our trusted friends in the cabinet office are now eyes wide open on this.

If your running infrastructure for 65m and we have 85+m, there’s huge pressure on state budgets.

We made it too easy to come here with student visas, marriage visas etc, this is now tighter, however personally the EU settled status was the right thing to do (although it was thought that it was 2 million eu citizens residing in the UK), it’s a shame the EU have not fully reciprocated the rights of UK citizens that have formally lived in EU countries like we have them by offering settled status and access to healthcare etc,I suppose we play by the rules, they did not.

Slightly off topic but hope my response helps.

[F1GTRUeno]

Murph7355 said:

You get the chance to vote for a government that will. It's not time limited.

Of course you may feel that no UK govt ever will, and I can have some sympathy with that view given the last 30yrs. But I'd have had far more respect for that view if the people with it had simply said "screw it, we should be all in".

Patience is required. The next govt will be no better... Eventually we as an electorate may wake up to that and demand something better internally.

And where the bloody fk are we getting these 'better' from exactly?

The idea that we can vote our way into better politicians to make a better fist of Brexit is a stupid one if you consider there are no better politicians waiting in the wings and the current pool is fetid.

[CivicDuties]

Deesee said:

CivicDuties said:

Tell us more about the bit in bold. I'm surprised to hear that anyone can come to the UK from anywhere at any time and legally reside in the country.

The 9 million EU pre settled status, and the supermarkets estimating the UK is feeding 85m people may come as a shock for some, even our trusted friends in the cabinet office are now eyes wide open on this.

If your running infrastructure for 65m and we have 85+m, there’s huge pressure on state budgets.

We made it too easy to come here with student visas, marriage visas etc, this is now tighter, however personally the EU settled status was the right thing to do (although it was thought that it was 2 million eu citizens residing in the UK), it’s a shame the EU have not fully reciprocated the rights of UK citizens that have formally lived in EU countries like we have them by offering settled status and access to healthcare etc,I suppose we play by the rules, they did not.

Slightly off topic but hope my response helps.

Doesn't sound like "uncontrolled immigration" to me. You speak of several controls which have always existed and many new ones. When was immigration into the UK last entirely uncontrolled?

It's a pernicious assertion to make and is a favourite of those who seek to mischaracterize immigration into the UK in order to win people to anti-immigration and xenophobic views and political policies. It is so casually thrown around, and yet does not contain a single element of truth. Uncontrolled immigration into the UK is a myth.

Further, the EU has indeed granted residency to UK citizens resident in their countries before Brexit, in stark contrast to the hoops and barriers and "hostile environment" to which EU citizens have been subjected in the UK. Your assertion here is also entirely mythical.

[Deesee]

Mrr T said:

Mortarboard said:

Mrr T said:

Mortarboard said:

Mrr T said:

Yes. Any EU+ citizen can live for as long as they wish in any EU+ country so long as they are exercising a treaty right. Normally FOML under the SM.

Any non EU+ who has visa free entry to EU+ countries is restricted to 90 days in 180 days. That's why your UK passport is stamped when you enter the Schengen area. For that reason the UK cannot join Schengen unless it joins the SM.

The "L" stands for labour.
Schengen gives neither residency nor work rights.

Uk joining the schengen would also help with that little "illegal immigration" problem.

M.

If the UK was part of schengen how would the schengen countries monitor the 90/180 day rule. Schengen does not give residency right but with no control on entry and exit a brit could enter and never leave.

Same as they do for any other entry, under free movement.

M.

You do seem to be struggling with a simple concept. Free movement between schengen countries works because there are no restrictions on how long you can remain in any country. If the UK was in schengen a UK passport would not be stamped on entry. So no one would know when you have entered or left. So no one would know if you broke the 90/180 day law.

MrrT, is correct here with no documentation required when circumnavigating Schengen, once your in your in, there’s no passport control for any citizens (eu or 3rd country). FYI there are EU countries that don’t have the 90/180 day rule (yet?)

For clarity FOM is not a Schengen benefit it’s an EU benefit, it’s one of the 4 fundamental benefits of the EU.

[Deesee]

CivicDuties said:

Doesn't sound like "uncontrolled immigration" to me. You speak of several controls which have always existed and many new ones. When was immigration into the UK last entirely uncontrolled?

It's a pernicious assertion to make and is a favourite of those who seek to mischaracterize immigration into the UK in order to win people to anti-immigration and xenophobic views and political policies. It is so casually thrown around, and yet does not contain a single element of truth. Uncontrolled immigration into the UK is a myth.

Further, the EU has indeed granted residency to UK citizens resident in their countries before Brexit, in stark contrast to the hoops and barriers and "hostile environment" to which EU citizens have been subjected in the UK. Your assertion here is also entirely mythical.

Sorry I don’t agree…

See the letter Cameron wrote to the EU asking them to urgently suspend FOM.

See subsequent said referendum, following the reply.

The UK had more EU immigration from 2014 to 2016 then from 1980 to 2012 fyi..

Further more the UK has accepted 9 million EU citizens to come and go as they please, the EU have around 500k UK citizens (exc Ireland as common travel area), many owners of property and business are restricted on time spent in the EU, it’s really not comparable..

[CivicDuties]

Deesee said:

CivicDuties said:

Doesn't sound like "uncontrolled immigration" to me. You speak of several controls which have always existed and many new ones. When was immigration into the UK last entirely uncontrolled?

It's a pernicious assertion to make and is a favourite of those who seek to mischaracterize immigration into the UK in order to win people to anti-immigration and xenophobic views and political policies. It is so casually thrown around, and yet does not contain a single element of truth. Uncontrolled immigration into the UK is a myth.

Further, the EU has indeed granted residency to UK citizens resident in their countries before Brexit, in stark contrast to the hoops and barriers and "hostile environment" to which EU citizens have been subjected in the UK. Your assertion here is also entirely mythical.

Sorry I don’t agree…

See the letter Cameron wrote to the EU asking them to urgently suspend FOM.

See subsequent said referendum, following the reply.

The UK had more EU immigration from 2014 to 2016 then from 1980 to 2012 fyi..

Further more the UK has accepted 9 million EU citizens to come and go as they please, the EU have around 500k UK citizens (exc Ireland as common travel area), many owners of property and business are restricted on time spent in the EU, it’s really not comparable..

Still can't substantiate your assertion of "uncontrolled immigration" then. OK. Also, could you evidence the assertion in bold? You'll find that if people leave the UK for too long, their status changes, therefore "coming and going as they please" is another myth. Finally, no UK citizen who was resident in the EU before Brexit is now under time limits to stay there. Only those who wish to move to the EU after Brexit happened are subject to the immigration processes we requested the EU apply to us as a third country.

[sugerbear]

1.2 million living in the EU. I would imagine that figure is much higher but many will have been living in the UK and Europe.

It was always a thing to be a snowbird and spend six months living in a milder weathered country. Cheaper to live in southern Europe in the winter, always has and always will.

[Deesee]

CivicDuties said:

Still can't substantiate your assertion of "uncontrolled immigration" then. OK. Also, could you evidence the assertion in bold? You'll find that if people leave the UK for too long, their status changes, therefore "coming and going as they please" is another myth. Finally, no UK citizen who was resident in the EU before Brexit is now under time limits to stay there. Only those who wish to move to the EU after Brexit happened are subject to the immigration processes we requested the EU apply to us as a third country.

Pre settled status, entering the UK every two years… for settled status we will review HMRC records for permanent status. No myth these are the rules..

Uk citizens did not need residency pre Brexit, we made that a condition of eu citizens pre settled status, this needs reciprocation (unconditionally).

Post Brexit, apply for a visa or better citizenship.









Eu migrants under control, row next..

[Deesee]

sugerbear said:

1.2 million living in the EU. I would imagine that figure is much higher but many will have been living in the UK and Europe.

It was always a thing to be a snowbird and spend six months living in a milder weathered country. Cheaper to live in southern Europe in the winter, always has and always will.

100% hence the need for reciprocation on numbers in and out.

[Mortarboard]

Mrr T said:

You do seem to be struggling with a simple concept. Free movement between schengen countries works because there are no restrictions on how long you can remain in any country. If the UK was in schengen a UK passport would not be stamped on entry. So no one would know when you have entered or left. So no one would know if you broke the 90/180 day law.

You can spare me your condescension, it still doesn't make you correct.
For example, a Belgian doesn't get a passport stamp going into Germany, both are in the schengen, and the Belgian still doesn't get residency rights.
Fact remains, schengen membership would mean it's easier to manage.

M.

[bad company]

I have a bit of an advantage here as I can get Irish citizenship and passport. Not sure whether to apply.