Israel invaded
Discussion
andymadmak said:
JJJ. said:
The audacity of you to criticize and take issue with anybody that supports the Palestinians over the Israelis. You're in cloud cuckoo land.
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911hope said:
Quite a personal attack.
Why take this approach? It doesn't look good at all.
Yes, granted but it was he who first attempted to claim that I was too dense to understand his 'nuanced' position. I was defending myself and attempting to explain how far off the mark he was and how transparent his word games were. It was a bit like a 10 year-old doing a magic trick to their uncle and thinking they had fooled them. Why take this approach? It doesn't look good at all.
You never know, in the long run, the self-reflection may help him...
In addition, I'd simply had enough of him getting away with his constant propaganda, lies and fanatical bias.
Now people can see his true colours...
JJJ. said:
I've never condemned any Palestinians, never will or it's very unlikely to happen, just couldn't image condemning the oppressed (putting it mildly). As for Hamas, difficult one, not my idea of freedom fighters and being backed by Iran certainly doesn't help their case in my eyes. But, and I feel this is important without Hamas the plight of the Palestinians would not be a major international issue as it is today and the massive condemnation of Israel for obvious reasons would not have occured. So, in my opinion the Hamas attack on Oct7 may benefit the Palestinians long term, the way things are going hopefully it won't be too long.
The World's eyes are firmly fixed on the Palestinian situation and how Israel has reacted and will react going forward. Importantly the Israeli government is under massive pressure from within and externally, hopefully this bodes well for the Palestinians.
The interesting thing is what happens if peace does occur (yep, getting ahead of myself), a two state solution actually does happen, Hamas no longer exists who are you the Israeli's going to have as a bogeyman? Hamas existence suits the Israeli's, after they factilated Hamas and particularly suited big b
ks Bibi and his government.
The World's eyes are firmly fixed on the Palestinian situation and how Israel has reacted and will react going forward. Importantly the Israeli government is under massive pressure from within and externally, hopefully this bodes well for the Palestinians.
The interesting thing is what happens if peace does occur (yep, getting ahead of myself), a two state solution actually does happen, Hamas no longer exists who are you the Israeli's going to have as a bogeyman? Hamas existence suits the Israeli's, after they factilated Hamas and particularly suited big b
ks Bibi and his government. Dagnir said:
Yes, granted but it was he who first attempted to claim that I was too dense to understand his 'nuanced' position. I was defending myself and attempting to explain how far off the mark he was and how transparent his word games were. It was a bit like a 10 year-old doing a magic trick to their uncle and thinking they had fooled them.
You never know, in the long run, the self-reflection may help him...
In addition, I'd simply had enough of him getting away with his constant propaganda, lies and fanatical bias.
Now people can see his true colours...
Also bordering on racism of low expectations against Palestinians...You never know, in the long run, the self-reflection may help him...
In addition, I'd simply had enough of him getting away with his constant propaganda, lies and fanatical bias.
Now people can see his true colours...
djc206 said:
Oliver Hardy said:
djc206 said:
Oliver Hardy said:
Is there any proof she was murdered?
Are you just as outraged at Iran for example targeting Journalists or any other country, or is it because she died in an operation involving Israelis?
Oh look a squirrel. Are you just as outraged at Iran for example targeting Journalists or any other country, or is it because she died in an operation involving Israelis?
The actions of Iran are not relevant to a conversation about the IDF killing journalists and not holding their members to account. Yes the Iranian regime is awful and they murder not just journalists but their own civilians for trivial things like not wearing headscarves but that doesn’t excuse the actions of the IDF so why even bring it up?
It’s this sort of silly defence of the IDF who in this case have failed to adequately prosecute one of their members for an unlawful and unjustified killing that attract the ire of others. Why bother trying to obfuscate? The IDF by virtue of its size and the extent of the actions it’s currently engaged in is bound to have a few bad apples, those bad apples will do bad things, why defend those actions? Why not condemn them as any right thinking human would?
It is relevant that these outraged at Israel are not bothered when it comes to other non western leaning nations carrying out atrocities, that is why what Iran does is not relevant in your mind.
king awful. Nothing about their being awful justifies anything Israel does or doesn’t do. Two very separate things, it’s odd you can’t see that.She wasn’t in a war zone. She was in the West Bank covering an IDF raid on a refugee camp. Whoever it was who fired the shots targeted a group of journalists wearing appropriate gear. Proof, no, we’ll never get that because there wasn’t a transparent investigation, evidence aplenty though.
Here’s CNN’s take:
But an investigation by CNN offers new evidence — including two videos of the scene of the shooting — that there was no active combat, nor any Palestinian militants, near Abu Akleh in the moments leading up to her death. Videos obtained by CNN, corroborated by testimony from eight eyewitnesses, an audio forensic analyst and an explosive weapons expert, suggest that Abu Akleh was shot dead in a targeted attack by Israeli forces.
Weird hill to die on. Just accept the IDF get it wrong from time to time, they’ve as good as admitted it in this case.
The fact that people are outraged at Israel but not Iran/Hamas or any other country like Russia, Saudi Arabia is relevant to this conversation.
Can I ask why would they set out to murder her?
Oliver Hardy said:
As the topic is about the attempt to nullify Hamas I do not know why you think the shooting of a journalist in the West Bank previously is?
The fact that people are outraged at Israel but not Iran/Hamas or any other country like Russia, Saudi Arabia is relevant to this conversation.
Can I ask why would they set out to murder her?
It wasn’t me who raised her killing. Its relevance is that her killing was committed by the IDF who are currently killing quite a few other innocents (as are Hamas for balance). The IDF not being held accountable for their crimes was the original thread that got tugged on and this was presented as one arguably very good example of that.The fact that people are outraged at Israel but not Iran/Hamas or any other country like Russia, Saudi Arabia is relevant to this conversation.
Can I ask why would they set out to murder her?
There’s probably many a thesis written on the motivation of murderers when targeting strangers, you’d have to ask the experts not me.
What makes you think people aren’t outraged at those other despotic regimes? There was uproar about Khashoggi for example. There’s been a lot of press attention and outrage on the international stage about Russias war crimes. I think the absence of outrage at other countries crimes is a fiction of your imagination but the point remains that none of those crimes are relevant when discussing the IDF.
JJJ. said:
Solocle said:
Also bordering on racism of low expectations against Palestinians...
Dare say anything especially factual against the Israeli's and now it's racism. Last week it was antisemitism! Says it all...
You need to slow down and curb your enthusiasm.
Your rabid desire to fight your fight, is clouding your understanding of English.
JJJ. said:
Solocle said:
Also bordering on racism of low expectations against Palestinians...
Dare say anything especially factual against the Israeli's and now it's racism. Last week it was antisemitism! Says it all...
Worth quoting.
911hope said:
34000 Palestinians killed, over 70000 injured in Gaza and displacement and attempted starvation of 2 Million Gaza people.
More than 500 Palestinians killed in the west bank and 8000 taken prisoner.
I'll let you pro Zionists keep ''defending the indefensible'' as someone else on here said. More than 500 Palestinians killed in the west bank and 8000 taken prisoner.
JJJ. said:
Double standards? There's no standards when it comes to Israeli policy, that's as clear as day. Standards? You're a comedian.
You might want to reflect on the untold suffering the Palestinians have been subjected to at the hands of the Israeli's even since 1948 which include death, destruction, evictions, mass imprisonment, land theft, apartheid and genocide.
The audacity of you to criticize and take issue with anybody that supports the Palestinians over the Israelis. You're in cloud cuckoo land.
Well said…….
You might want to reflect on the untold suffering the Palestinians have been subjected to at the hands of the Israeli's even since 1948 which include death, destruction, evictions, mass imprisonment, land theft, apartheid and genocide.
The audacity of you to criticize and take issue with anybody that supports the Palestinians over the Israelis. You're in cloud cuckoo land.
Well said…….
Edited by JJJ. on Sunday 12th May 11:18
JJJ. said:
andymadmak said:
JJJ. said:
. As for Hamas, difficult one, not my idea of freedom fighters and being backed by Iran certainly doesn't help their case in my eyes. But, and I feel this is important without Hamas the plight of the Palestinians would not be a major international issue as it is today and the massive condemnation of Israel for obvious reasons would not have occured. So, in my opinion the Hamas attack on Oct7 may benefit the Palestinians long term, the way things are going hopefully it won't be too long.
The problem with this part of your post is that it underscores your double standards..... You might want to reflect on that. You might want to reflect on the untold suffering the Palestinians have been subjected to at the hands of the Israeli's even since 1948 which include death, destruction, evictions, mass imprisonment, land theft, apartheid and genocide.
The audacity of you to criticize and take issue with anybody that supports the Palestinians over the Israelis. You're in cloud cuckoo land.
Edited by JJJ. on Sunday 12th May 11:18
djc206 said:
Oliver Hardy said:
As the topic is about the attempt to nullify Hamas I do not know why you think the shooting of a journalist in the West Bank previously is?
The fact that people are outraged at Israel but not Iran/Hamas or any other country like Russia, Saudi Arabia is relevant to this conversation.
Can I ask why would they set out to murder her?
It wasn’t me who raised her killing. Its relevance is that her killing was committed by the IDF who are currently killing quite a few other innocents (as are Hamas for balance). The IDF not being held accountable for their crimes was the original thread that got tugged on and this was presented as one arguably very good example of that.The fact that people are outraged at Israel but not Iran/Hamas or any other country like Russia, Saudi Arabia is relevant to this conversation.
Can I ask why would they set out to murder her?
There’s probably many a thesis written on the motivation of murderers when targeting strangers, you’d have to ask the experts not me.
What makes you think people aren’t outraged at those other despotic regimes? There was uproar about Khashoggi for example. There’s been a lot of press attention and outrage on the international stage about Russias war crimes. I think the absence of outrage at other countries crimes is a fiction of your imagination but the point remains that none of those crimes are relevant when discussing the IDF.
What makes me think people aren’t outraged at those other despotic regimes? Well reading this forum for example, I don't see protests on the streets of London or in Universities or news stories on BBC every night.
Oliver Hardy said:
I was asking generally not just you?
What makes me think people aren’t outraged at those other despotic regimes?
Because they are despotic regimes, unlike Israel, who is a supposedly civilised country with western allies and so held to higher standards. That mask of respectability has well and truly slipped. What makes me think people aren’t outraged at those other despotic regimes?
Don't think we have had this.
The UN have just significantly reduced their confirmed number of women and children killed. Until a few days ago they were showing nearly twice as many women killed.
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-s...
Of course they could be included in the unidentifiable total, and many likely will be, but it seems a significant statistical revision.
Many of us have said that the proportion of women and children in the death toll looked wrong, because, even if you accept significant collateral damage has occurred, you would still expect many Hamas fighters in the death toll.
The UN have just significantly reduced their confirmed number of women and children killed. Until a few days ago they were showing nearly twice as many women killed.
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-s...
Of course they could be included in the unidentifiable total, and many likely will be, but it seems a significant statistical revision.
Many of us have said that the proportion of women and children in the death toll looked wrong, because, even if you accept significant collateral damage has occurred, you would still expect many Hamas fighters in the death toll.
JagLover said:
Don't think we have had this.
The UN have just significantly reduced their confirmed number of women and children killed. Until a few days ago they were showing nearly twice as many women killed.
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-s...
Of course they could be included in the unidentifiable total, and many likely will be, but it seems a significant statistical revision.
Many of us have said that the proportion of women and children in the death toll looked wrong, because, even if you accept significant collateral damage has occurred, you would still expect many Hamas fighters in the death toll.
You might also want to look a bit more carefully at the numbers reported rather than just look at the headline figures as well. That smaller number quoted on the website is based on the pool of 24k killed and identified rather than out of the reported 34k total killed. the % of women and children is lower than previous (20/32 vs 27/41) but there is a new category of 'elderly' that has also appeared so if you put half of that into the 'women' group then the figures aren't all that different compared to what you are suggesting above...The UN have just significantly reduced their confirmed number of women and children killed. Until a few days ago they were showing nearly twice as many women killed.
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-s...
Of course they could be included in the unidentifiable total, and many likely will be, but it seems a significant statistical revision.
Many of us have said that the proportion of women and children in the death toll looked wrong, because, even if you accept significant collateral damage has occurred, you would still expect many Hamas fighters in the death toll.
isaldiri said:
You might also want to look a bit more carefully at the numbers reported rather than just look at the headline figures as well. That smaller number quoted on the website is based on the pool of 24k killed and identified rather than out of the reported 34k total killed. the % of women and children is lower than previous (20/32 vs 27/41) but there is a new category of 'elderly' that has also appeared so if you put half of that into the 'women' group then the figures aren't all that different compared to what you are suggesting above...
Fair point about the elderly, but there still seems a significant difference remaining and, if the unidentified have a similar proportion to the identified, there seems many fewer women and children killed than was being reported just a few days ago. JagLover said:
isaldiri said:
You might also want to look a bit more carefully at the numbers reported rather than just look at the headline figures as well. That smaller number quoted on the website is based on the pool of 24k killed and identified rather than out of the reported 34k total killed. the % of women and children is lower than previous (20/32 vs 27/41) but there is a new category of 'elderly' that has also appeared so if you put half of that into the 'women' group then the figures aren't all that different compared to what you are suggesting above...
Fair point about the elderly, but there still seems a significant difference remaining and, if the unidentified have a similar proportion to the identified, there seems many fewer women and children killed than was being reported just a few days ago. isaldiri said:
Do you think 7k women and 11k children plus 2.5k elderly using the 'identified' % really makes such a big difference to 9.5k women and 14k children getting killed as per previous numbers?
Yes?, because the men to women ratio is now 2 to 1, and we also do not know how many of the children are fighters under the age of 18.It helps Israel make the case that they have been targeting Hamas fighters, with significant collateral casualties, rather than carrying out indiscriminate bombing. Not to say that it has been as targeted as it could have been of course and there have been suggestions that Israel allowed very lax rules of engagement in the immediate aftermath of the Oct 7th attacks.
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