HMRC have no sense of humour
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
Dumb thing to do as he could have invited an enquiry into his return - which could lead top a world of grief. Like Customs and Border Agency officers - don't atempt to josh with HMRC.
Really? Even assuming that his return is accurate, he could be inviting a world of grief?Very sad reflection on what is supposed to be a public service.
But not surprising.
What "service" does HMRC provide? None at all - as far as the taxpayer is concerned. They are a government enforcement body with a tremendous amount of power and authority - that is all.
As long as people realise this, they will understand how HMRC thinks. The worst thing HMRC ever did was to start calling taxpayers "customers". It is downright misleading and not at all a true reflection of the relationship between HMRC and the taxpayer.
As long as people realise this, they will understand how HMRC thinks. The worst thing HMRC ever did was to start calling taxpayers "customers". It is downright misleading and not at all a true reflection of the relationship between HMRC and the taxpayer.
Eric Mc said:
What "service" does HMRC provide? None at all - as far as the taxpayer is concerned. They are a government enforcement body with a tremendous amount of power and authority - that is all.
As long as people realise this, they will understand how HMRC thinks. The worst thing HMRC ever did was to start calling taxpayers "customers". It is downright misleading and not at all a true reflection of the relationship between HMRC and the taxpayer.
doesn't mean you should run around scared of them As long as people realise this, they will understand how HMRC thinks. The worst thing HMRC ever did was to start calling taxpayers "customers". It is downright misleading and not at all a true reflection of the relationship between HMRC and the taxpayer.
My ex business partner had it right- he was squeaky clean, but kept his records in as difficult position as possible, HMRC used to spend month on investigations and never found a penny (usually ended up giving him money).
The major problem is that accountants are scared of the taxman and have basically allowed themselves en masse to become an arm of the revenue. As an accountant, its a sad state of affairs.
Why would anyone want to invite HMRC into their business to engage in investigation and enquiry work?
Surely a sensible busuiness person would be far better off using their valuable time concentrating on running and improving their business rather than giving HMRC the runaround.
I'm not scared of HMRC - but I'd much rather spend my time not having to argue with them. And most of my clients are of the same mindset.
Surely a sensible busuiness person would be far better off using their valuable time concentrating on running and improving their business rather than giving HMRC the runaround.
I'm not scared of HMRC - but I'd much rather spend my time not having to argue with them. And most of my clients are of the same mindset.
One day I had too much time on my hands and replied to an HMRC letter requesting that they refrain from calling me a "customer" on the basis that "customers" have the freedom of choice to patronise an establishment with their "custom" and would they please refer to me as an Unwilling Victim I didn't get a reply.
PugwasHDJ80 said:
doesn't mean you should run around scared of them
My ex business partner had it right- he was squeaky clean, but kept his records in as difficult position as possible, HMRC used to spend month on investigations and never found a penny (usually ended up giving him money).
The major problem is that accountants are scared of the taxman and have basically allowed themselves en masse to become an arm of the revenue. As an accountant, its a sad state of affairs.
I just don't recognise the picture you're trying to paint there. I don't think Accountants are scared of HMRC, frustrated maybe when trying to contact them but not scared. After all, Accountants aren't liable if it discovered a client his made a false return. I've had the "arm of the revenue" throw out before, usually when a client is told by his mate down the pub he can put a speedboat down as a business expense for his painting and decorating business or the like. My ex business partner had it right- he was squeaky clean, but kept his records in as difficult position as possible, HMRC used to spend month on investigations and never found a penny (usually ended up giving him money).
The major problem is that accountants are scared of the taxman and have basically allowed themselves en masse to become an arm of the revenue. As an accountant, its a sad state of affairs.
When it comes down to it, Accountants can only advise their clients, if they want to try something stupid they can go ahead, there's no sense going crying back the Accountant when HMRC want their money back, plus interest.
If you want to waste tax payers money having HMRC compete pointless investigations by making it awkward to do their job, go ahead (or rather don't I'd rather they didn’t have to) but keep in mind the HMRC don't care about it, they get paid the same ether way, but accept you are in a weaker position than HMRC and they can give you a worse day than you could ever give them.
P-Jay said:
I just don't recognise the picture you're trying to paint there. I don't think Accountants are scared of HMRC, frustrated maybe when trying to contact them but not scared. After all, Accountants aren't liable if it discovered a client his made a false return. I've had the "arm of the revenue" throw out before, usually when a client is told by his mate down the pub he can put a speedboat down as a business expense for his painting and decorating business or the like.
When it comes down to it, Accountants can only advise their clients, if they want to try something stupid they can go ahead, there's no sense going crying back the Accountant when HMRC want their money back, plus interest.
If you want to waste tax payers money having HMRC compete pointless investigations by making it awkward to do their job, go ahead (or rather don't I'd rather they didn’t have to) but keep in mind the HMRC don't care about it, they get paid the same ether way, but accept you are in a weaker position than HMRC and they can give you a worse day than you could ever give them.
As an accountant I realise very few in the profession seem to recognise what i'm suggesting here. The point is that accountants are now far more likely to suggest any route that appeases HMRC than actually challenges HMRC, certainly in the SME arena. When it comes down to it, Accountants can only advise their clients, if they want to try something stupid they can go ahead, there's no sense going crying back the Accountant when HMRC want their money back, plus interest.
If you want to waste tax payers money having HMRC compete pointless investigations by making it awkward to do their job, go ahead (or rather don't I'd rather they didn’t have to) but keep in mind the HMRC don't care about it, they get paid the same ether way, but accept you are in a weaker position than HMRC and they can give you a worse day than you could ever give them.
Obviously some clients will want as quite a life as possible, but some clients don't want to pay tax that they've worked for, and would like help to legally achieve reductions, and will quite happoly sit in the grey area of what is open to interpretation in tax laws. Unfortunately there are fewer accountants willing to sit there at the same time.
Eric's comment is a case in point- someone makes a sarcy comment to HMRC- Erics comments is "don't do that because they might come and investigate".
that is not a healthy situation to be in.
all imo of course- and quite happy to recognise that other people take a much more pragmatic viewpoint of course.
Yes it is. I had them here last week for a PAYE & NIC check. When I pointed out that I am a one band band & have been for seven years, it fell on deaf ears. So it was arranged for Friday morning - as I only live around the corner. No such thing as Friday afternoons eh?
Thus we spent a pointless hour going through my P11D stuff - £300 of mileage claimed last year, £600 petty cash and so on. I almost offered the woman a Starbucks at one point. I guess after ten years trading I've done ok to avoid them, but there is a reason I don't warrant the attention. I'm squeaky clean. Waste of time & effort.
Thus we spent a pointless hour going through my P11D stuff - £300 of mileage claimed last year, £600 petty cash and so on. I almost offered the woman a Starbucks at one point. I guess after ten years trading I've done ok to avoid them, but there is a reason I don't warrant the attention. I'm squeaky clean. Waste of time & effort.
Digga said:
I think his retort "who did I miss out" was even funnier.
Although as Eric says. You do not want the HMRC in your life, even if you have nothing to hide, it is like being visited by a black hole in terms of your time and sanity.
Exactly. I'm not scared of them. But I and my clients prefer to keep them at arms length.Although as Eric says. You do not want the HMRC in your life, even if you have nothing to hide, it is like being visited by a black hole in terms of your time and sanity.
Eric Mc said:
Digga said:
I think his retort "who did I miss out" was even funnier.
Although as Eric says. You do not want the HMRC in your life, even if you have nothing to hide, it is like being visited by a black hole in terms of your time and sanity.
Exactly. I'm not scared of them. But I and my clients prefer to keep them at arms length.Although as Eric says. You do not want the HMRC in your life, even if you have nothing to hide, it is like being visited by a black hole in terms of your time and sanity.
Early on in my business career I made some bad choices and ended up owing the Tax/Vat man a large sum of money. I had to attend a Tax Commission (I don't think its called that any more, Eric?) where I was grilled about every last penny I spent, statements like "So, you buy a newspaper each day and sometimes a bar of chocolate, in that case we will allow you 37p a day for that".
Even my accountant looked nervous. They gave me a bare minimum to live on and every penny over goes to them, miss a payment and its goodnight.
It was fair enough though, I owed them it and they didn't bankrupt me, it took 5 years of extremely hard graft and very frugal times to pay it all back. That was 20 years ago and they've never bothered me since.
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