A public sector employee's point of view...
Discussion
Didn't know where to post this but I feel strongly enough to do so because everything I've read so far seems largely one sided. I don't intend to respond to any replies and get into massive debates - this is just about giving my scenario and why I have chosen to strike - I'm not looking for sympathy.
If your company takes out a long term contract with a client and mid way through the client wants to enforce a change against the original contract – let’s say they can no longer afford the original price they committed to cos they’ve had some bad times and haven’t managed their finances properly – what would you do? You’d say tough s
t! OK, you may try and renegotiate [***ETA** there is no negotiation going on here] but if that fails and they refuse to pay you what do you do? You take them to court (at a cost to you) and (try to) get them to pay up.
I have a contract. And now the person I have the contract with is trying to renegotiate midterm (for all the reasons above) – [***ETA*** I should've said trying to impose, there is no negotiation] - but they’re the government, I can’t take them to court, what do I do? They will not negotiate. My only option is strike action (at a cost to me).
Are we all well paid and "gold plated" in the civil service? You decide. Let’s get into the real world shall we?
I have worked for HMRC (nee C&E) since 1986. I am an HO (Higher Officer). I lead a team of 12 staff. For added spice we deal with VAT liability queries from across the UK, the revenue risk implications of which can amount to millions.
I am 45. My salary is £30k – this has been frozen for the last 2 years. The absolute MAXIMUM salary increase I can expect over the next 2 years is 1%.
The extra cost of the pension reforms represent a 3% pay cut (I will end up having something like an extra £70 a month deducted toward pension).
My pension will no longer be based on final 3 years salary but on a career average. I now cannot take my pension until 67.
Mine is the only income in the household – my partner has had MS since 1999 (she receives around £60 per week as a benefit). Not looking for sympathy - it is relevant, this is how I live. fact.
At this point a few of you may be darting into my garage and saying hang on a minute, look at the exotica you’ve owned. Yep – can’t deny I’ve owned an enjoyed some stunning cars but I could only realise those dream cars as a result of losing my dad to stomach cancer in 2001 and frankly that cost was way too high.
“Yeah but you choose to join the civil service” – Yes, you’re right, I did and that choice was based on weighing up pluses and minuses. It just so happened that the salary was a bit of a minus but the pension was a bit of a plus.
So that is why I am sitting here at home writing this rather than being sat in work (writing this lol!).
Don’t get me wrong I’m not trying to preach to anyone – I’m just trying to put forward the view from the other side, actually I really shouldn’t say that, I’m just putting forward the view of a fellow worker whose employer is trying to have one over on them.
I have chosen to strike today. Thanks for reading.
Oh yes, a word about sick leave. I've read alot about civil servants taking the mickey with sick leave. I can only talk about my area - whilst it's true levels have been high there has been a huge drive from driector level downwards now for sometime to signifcantly reduce levels and it is working. If someone has more than 5 days or 3 instances of sick in any rolling 12 months our guidance requires managers to look at stage 1 formal trial proceedings. there are only 3 stages and the 3rd is basically out the door. There are occuational helth considerations for long term sick leave. ***ETA*** HR policy was never optional - the trigger limits have been changed however to those mentioned.
Finally, my work area has recently gone through the HMRC equivalent of LEAN (called pacesetter) and I can tell you that conceptions of a comfortable, relaxed, well paid existence in HMRC are severely misplaced.
Additional edit following 13 pages of responses!!
I did say I wouldn’t reply and this won’t be specific but after such a strong response there are some common themes I felt I wanted to comment on.
Of course I realise I am lucky to have a job in the current climate, of course I do. I have taken the pay freeze on the chin like you those in the private sector (and previously reneged deals) but in relation to the pension switch however I have drawn a line in the sand. Some of my colleagues have drawn their line elsewhere and are working and others haven’t had the conviction to draw any line (cow tow, thank your lucky stars ever so ‘umble). It’s personal choice. For those of you who’ve “lost £1000s” in PPIs you should take that up with your pension provider – I’m taking my issue up with my pension provider. I’m not whinging, I’m relaying my circumstance.
This whole perception of laziness – I can’t comment on the rest of the sector obviously – but in our department we do work hard. My section has very dedicated staff who often go further than the extra mile – we have driven people, innovators, people who utilise skill sets they’re not required to have or use day to day yet employ them to improve our process and customer satisfaction. Some are excel, access and vba experts who produce enhanced, smart databases to allow us to fulfil our roles more efficiently and report to Directorate faster and with greater accuracy – yes this goes against data security guidance but we have no budget and overworked IMS so without their help we simply wouldn’t move forward. Some think outside the box and come up with radical rethinks of ways of working. There is huge pride and goodwill in the department and our employers rely heavily on this. There is no real incentive for staff to do this however apart from their own convictions – they receive the same pay whether they fit this extra work in or just do their core work.
Do I not realise this happens elswhere? Of course this kind of dedication is at least mirrored in the private sector, of course it is, but I’ll wager these kind of contributions are much better financially recognised on that side of the fence. Our guys still do it because they simply want to perform and do their best. The air of private sector worker superiority I’m getting here simply isn’t justified – our guys are every inch as capable, versatile and innovative. If you have experienced sloppy or lazy service in dealings with other parts of the public sector please don’t tar us all with the same brush. I’m happy to see some of my colleagues posting that they are in and working today as it is truly personal choice, but I can’t help feeling they are just helping reinforce the stereotype that civil servants have nothing to do but fk around on the internet all day. That said I note the majority of posters taking the time to read and comment on here appear to be private sector employees – very interesting. Is there bloat in the public sector? There are 1000s of job losses due within the next year in our department – we are up against it as well (from a personal viewpoint C&E did inherit a rather top heavy staff structure when we were taken over by IR). I’ve probably said much more than I should have– who wanted my job? It may be available shortly! And for the nail in the coffin – that phone company – who do you think made the decision on that one? Do you honestly think those at the coalface were remotely happy about that outcome?
The slight irony is my action today effectively reduces my salary career average…I’ve already reduced my pension!
Edit 1/12/11 (note the time of edit before anyone has a dig about using the internet at work!)
Only one person that took me to task over salary has revealed their age, occupation and wage - and that was a fellow Public Sector worker - and yes, it did actually make me sit back and think. To the rest, I can only say sorry, but I don't do anecdotal evidence - how can I seriously consider your "points" with no equivalent data?
PS to be fair taxpayer salaried Clarkson was just Clarkson being Clarkson it's nothing new - some people thought it funny, some didn't (he didn't find his injunction failure funny whereas I did).
Edit 3/12/11 Saturday
Yes, I am reading it all! Must admit I’m still finding the “we pay your wages” argument amusing – technically we ALL pay my wages, even me (we do pay I/T & NI you know) but it’s a circular argument. “You” pay my wages ,“I” go and spend my wages on products and services from the private sector thereby paying your wages (after your shareholders and Directors have taken whatever bonuses/dividends they see fit of course). So then next month you pay me, I go out, spend and pay you, then you pay me again etc. etc. chicken and egg. circular.
I think I can summarise the 25 pages as “I’m a workshy whinger who has a far more comfy existence than anyone in the “heamorrhaging” (good word someone used – I did like that – very visual) private sector at the moment, all of whom are worse off than me and that I don’t realise how good I’ve got it”.
And that’s the thing, after 25 pages and counting I honestly still don’t know how good I’ve supposedly got it over the privateers faced with that kind of “empirical” evidence. A top coat of anecdotal with the broadest brush available. Tell me – demonstrate – you know my situation, show me how much worse off you are – wait, I should just take your word for it? No offence but I’ve taken someone’s word for things before…
The PS never had boom years like Private S. I joined C&E in ’86 whilst mates were going into private sector jobs – within years their wages were spiralling above mine and with better pay rises and potential for bonuses too. PS just trudged on. So whilst it was living it up were the private sector being prudent and putting money aside just in case a bust was round the corner? It seems the government didn’t either. And then it all appears to be the PS fault for being bloated and inefficient. My area brought in £78.5m Tax in 08/09 at a cost of less than a penny per pound – not bad VFM. “Diddums” I think someone said – at least you had a bite of the cherry!! I was waiting to retire for my (Taste the Difference as you’d probably say) cherry and now it seems it’s going a bit Tesco’s Value before I can get to it! You’re out of cherries so everyone should be out of cherries. How the fark did I get onto cherries? Anyway I did learn something from talking to a friend in the private sector – it turned out their pension contribution was multiple times higher than mine but interestingly after I revealed what my pension would be they wouldn’t reveal theirs as it was multiple times higher.
- *ETA*** This isn't about pay rises or freezes either.
If your company takes out a long term contract with a client and mid way through the client wants to enforce a change against the original contract – let’s say they can no longer afford the original price they committed to cos they’ve had some bad times and haven’t managed their finances properly – what would you do? You’d say tough s
t! OK, you may try and renegotiate [***ETA** there is no negotiation going on here] but if that fails and they refuse to pay you what do you do? You take them to court (at a cost to you) and (try to) get them to pay up.I have a contract. And now the person I have the contract with is trying to renegotiate midterm (for all the reasons above) – [***ETA*** I should've said trying to impose, there is no negotiation] - but they’re the government, I can’t take them to court, what do I do? They will not negotiate. My only option is strike action (at a cost to me).
Are we all well paid and "gold plated" in the civil service? You decide. Let’s get into the real world shall we?
I have worked for HMRC (nee C&E) since 1986. I am an HO (Higher Officer). I lead a team of 12 staff. For added spice we deal with VAT liability queries from across the UK, the revenue risk implications of which can amount to millions.
I am 45. My salary is £30k – this has been frozen for the last 2 years. The absolute MAXIMUM salary increase I can expect over the next 2 years is 1%.
The extra cost of the pension reforms represent a 3% pay cut (I will end up having something like an extra £70 a month deducted toward pension).
My pension will no longer be based on final 3 years salary but on a career average. I now cannot take my pension until 67.
Mine is the only income in the household – my partner has had MS since 1999 (she receives around £60 per week as a benefit). Not looking for sympathy - it is relevant, this is how I live. fact.
At this point a few of you may be darting into my garage and saying hang on a minute, look at the exotica you’ve owned. Yep – can’t deny I’ve owned an enjoyed some stunning cars but I could only realise those dream cars as a result of losing my dad to stomach cancer in 2001 and frankly that cost was way too high.
“Yeah but you choose to join the civil service” – Yes, you’re right, I did and that choice was based on weighing up pluses and minuses. It just so happened that the salary was a bit of a minus but the pension was a bit of a plus.
So that is why I am sitting here at home writing this rather than being sat in work (writing this lol!).
Don’t get me wrong I’m not trying to preach to anyone – I’m just trying to put forward the view from the other side, actually I really shouldn’t say that, I’m just putting forward the view of a fellow worker whose employer is trying to have one over on them.
I have chosen to strike today. Thanks for reading.
Oh yes, a word about sick leave. I've read alot about civil servants taking the mickey with sick leave. I can only talk about my area - whilst it's true levels have been high there has been a huge drive from driector level downwards now for sometime to signifcantly reduce levels and it is working. If someone has more than 5 days or 3 instances of sick in any rolling 12 months our guidance requires managers to look at stage 1 formal trial proceedings. there are only 3 stages and the 3rd is basically out the door. There are occuational helth considerations for long term sick leave. ***ETA*** HR policy was never optional - the trigger limits have been changed however to those mentioned.
Finally, my work area has recently gone through the HMRC equivalent of LEAN (called pacesetter) and I can tell you that conceptions of a comfortable, relaxed, well paid existence in HMRC are severely misplaced.
- *ETA*** - No, I was not on the picket line - I wasn't aware you had to do that for strike action to be effective. As I am not being paid today I don't see any issue with using the day as I see fit. I admit I was fully expecting a mauling and you have surely delivered!
Edited by smash on Wednesday 30th November 18:45
Additional edit following 13 pages of responses!!
I did say I wouldn’t reply and this won’t be specific but after such a strong response there are some common themes I felt I wanted to comment on.
Of course I realise I am lucky to have a job in the current climate, of course I do. I have taken the pay freeze on the chin like you those in the private sector (and previously reneged deals) but in relation to the pension switch however I have drawn a line in the sand. Some of my colleagues have drawn their line elsewhere and are working and others haven’t had the conviction to draw any line (cow tow, thank your lucky stars ever so ‘umble). It’s personal choice. For those of you who’ve “lost £1000s” in PPIs you should take that up with your pension provider – I’m taking my issue up with my pension provider. I’m not whinging, I’m relaying my circumstance.
This whole perception of laziness – I can’t comment on the rest of the sector obviously – but in our department we do work hard. My section has very dedicated staff who often go further than the extra mile – we have driven people, innovators, people who utilise skill sets they’re not required to have or use day to day yet employ them to improve our process and customer satisfaction. Some are excel, access and vba experts who produce enhanced, smart databases to allow us to fulfil our roles more efficiently and report to Directorate faster and with greater accuracy – yes this goes against data security guidance but we have no budget and overworked IMS so without their help we simply wouldn’t move forward. Some think outside the box and come up with radical rethinks of ways of working. There is huge pride and goodwill in the department and our employers rely heavily on this. There is no real incentive for staff to do this however apart from their own convictions – they receive the same pay whether they fit this extra work in or just do their core work.
Do I not realise this happens elswhere? Of course this kind of dedication is at least mirrored in the private sector, of course it is, but I’ll wager these kind of contributions are much better financially recognised on that side of the fence. Our guys still do it because they simply want to perform and do their best. The air of private sector worker superiority I’m getting here simply isn’t justified – our guys are every inch as capable, versatile and innovative. If you have experienced sloppy or lazy service in dealings with other parts of the public sector please don’t tar us all with the same brush. I’m happy to see some of my colleagues posting that they are in and working today as it is truly personal choice, but I can’t help feeling they are just helping reinforce the stereotype that civil servants have nothing to do but f
k around on the internet all day. That said I note the majority of posters taking the time to read and comment on here appear to be private sector employees – very interesting. Is there bloat in the public sector? There are 1000s of job losses due within the next year in our department – we are up against it as well (from a personal viewpoint C&E did inherit a rather top heavy staff structure when we were taken over by IR). I’ve probably said much more than I should have– who wanted my job? It may be available shortly! And for the nail in the coffin – that phone company – who do you think made the decision on that one? Do you honestly think those at the coalface were remotely happy about that outcome?The slight irony is my action today effectively reduces my salary career average…I’ve already reduced my pension!
Edited by smash on Thursday 1st December 12:21
Edit 1/12/11 (note the time of edit before anyone has a dig about using the internet at work!)
Only one person that took me to task over salary has revealed their age, occupation and wage - and that was a fellow Public Sector worker - and yes, it did actually make me sit back and think. To the rest, I can only say sorry, but I don't do anecdotal evidence - how can I seriously consider your "points" with no equivalent data?
PS to be fair taxpayer salaried Clarkson was just Clarkson being Clarkson it's nothing new - some people thought it funny, some didn't (he didn't find his injunction failure funny whereas I did).
Edited by smash on Saturday 3rd December 11:23
Edit 3/12/11 Saturday
Yes, I am reading it all! Must admit I’m still finding the “we pay your wages” argument amusing – technically we ALL pay my wages, even me (we do pay I/T & NI you know) but it’s a circular argument. “You” pay my wages ,“I” go and spend my wages on products and services from the private sector thereby paying your wages (after your shareholders and Directors have taken whatever bonuses/dividends they see fit of course). So then next month you pay me, I go out, spend and pay you, then you pay me again etc. etc. chicken and egg. circular.
I think I can summarise the 25 pages as “I’m a workshy whinger who has a far more comfy existence than anyone in the “heamorrhaging” (good word someone used – I did like that – very visual) private sector at the moment, all of whom are worse off than me and that I don’t realise how good I’ve got it”.
And that’s the thing, after 25 pages and counting I honestly still don’t know how good I’ve supposedly got it over the privateers faced with that kind of “empirical” evidence. A top coat of anecdotal with the broadest brush available. Tell me – demonstrate – you know my situation, show me how much worse off you are – wait, I should just take your word for it? No offence but I’ve taken someone’s word for things before…
The PS never had boom years like Private S. I joined C&E in ’86 whilst mates were going into private sector jobs – within years their wages were spiralling above mine and with better pay rises and potential for bonuses too. PS just trudged on. So whilst it was living it up were the private sector being prudent and putting money aside just in case a bust was round the corner? It seems the government didn’t either. And then it all appears to be the PS fault for being bloated and inefficient. My area brought in £78.5m Tax in 08/09 at a cost of less than a penny per pound – not bad VFM. “Diddums” I think someone said – at least you had a bite of the cherry!! I was waiting to retire for my (Taste the Difference as you’d probably say) cherry and now it seems it’s going a bit Tesco’s Value before I can get to it! You’re out of cherries so everyone should be out of cherries. How the fark did I get onto cherries? Anyway I did learn something from talking to a friend in the private sector – it turned out their pension contribution was multiple times higher than mine but interestingly after I revealed what my pension would be they wouldn’t reveal theirs as it was multiple times higher.
Edited by smash on Saturday 3rd December 11:27
turbobloke said:
What'as the public sector employee view on this?
Pupils told to write protest letter on David Cameron's pension cuts in school exam:
http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/9396030.11_y...letter_to_David_Cameronon_pension_cuts_in_exam/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews...
I'm flaunting my stated non reply policy here (because I've been updating the OP as things have gone along to keep it in one place) but in short, massive error of judgement. Manipulative, plain wrong.Pupils told to write protest letter on David Cameron's pension cuts in school exam:
http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/9396030.11_y...letter_to_David_Cameronon_pension_cuts_in_exam/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews...
How do you portray the PS action/speak about PS in general to your kids at home?
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