Don't Mention the War. Or Churchill.
Discussion
I watched him on a Discovery Channel programme about NASA last night.
Then this:
UN ambassador for space apologises for quoting 'racist' Winston Churchill
Still, must keep the twitter mob onside.
Then this:
UN ambassador for space apologises for quoting 'racist' Winston Churchill
Scott Kelly said:
One of the greatest leaders of modern times, Sir Winston Churchill said, in victory, magnanimity.
Then Scott Kelly said:
Did not mean to offend by quoting Churchill. My apologies. I will go and educate myself further on his atrocities, racist views which I do not support.
Unfortunate choice of words?Still, must keep the twitter mob onside.
Oh c'mon peopes.
Eric has aired his opinion. I'm obviously not alone in not aligning with it.
But his argument is is no way unduly inflammatory.
As for Kelly, I think it's a simple case of misjudging the instant airing of ones thoughts to the entire world. Black Mirror was/is inevitable.
It's a braver new world now.
Eric has aired his opinion. I'm obviously not alone in not aligning with it.
But his argument is is no way unduly inflammatory.
As for Kelly, I think it's a simple case of misjudging the instant airing of ones thoughts to the entire world. Black Mirror was/is inevitable.
It's a braver new world now.
cardigankid said:
Eric
Winston Churchill is indeed a fascinating character, though The River War is an even better read than My Early Life. However
1.Some suggest that his heroic escape was largely an example of history treating him favourably because he wrote it; further that
2. He achieved very little in WW1 other than get a lot of innocent people killed
3. Between the wars he was funded by a group of ‘wellwishers’ whose bidding he then did
3. He achieved very little in WW2 other than get a lot of innocent people killed
4. After WW2 he achieved very little
These points of view have got some weight. One of the reasons why I do not want to see Boris as PM, and find all the anti-Russia hysteria alarming, and have a positive aversion to all the jingoism surrounding Brexit.
What would that be then? Winston Churchill is indeed a fascinating character, though The River War is an even better read than My Early Life. However
1.Some suggest that his heroic escape was largely an example of history treating him favourably because he wrote it; further that
2. He achieved very little in WW1 other than get a lot of innocent people killed
3. Between the wars he was funded by a group of ‘wellwishers’ whose bidding he then did
3. He achieved very little in WW2 other than get a lot of innocent people killed
4. After WW2 he achieved very little
These points of view have got some weight. One of the reasons why I do not want to see Boris as PM, and find all the anti-Russia hysteria alarming, and have a positive aversion to all the jingoism surrounding Brexit.
cardigankid said:
Churchill never lifted a finger to save any of them, before or during WW2. Whether pushing Britain into war with Germany saved any of them or caused their demise is debatable, never mind all the others who died, or the deliberate destruction without any military reason whatsoever of a large number of German cities, resulting in men, women and children suffocated crushed and burnt to death. Who are the war criminals? Don’t be deluded, everyone. What is for certain is that Churchill pushed for the war. He truly said that all he had to offer was blood toil sweat and tears. He left Britain completely bust and stuffed. When it was obvious that Britain and the British Empire were finished he sought to translate his imperial vision into a brotherhood or commonwealth of The English Speaking Peoples, hence his history of that title. America was supposed to pick up the flag and carry it forward. Instead of which they ripped Britain off, selling them second rate war materials, forcing them to destroy much of it in 1945, but making them pay in full for every last piece of it. The Americans to whom Churchill put Britain into hock were absolutely determined to finish the British Empire and Britain’s leading role in the world, and they did. The Special Relationship is a very one sided affair. They tell us to jump and we ask how high. That is where Winston Churchill led Britain.
So, consider that when we get all this stuff about the Greatest Englishman Whoever Lived. Some people may have preferred to get their sons, brothers or husbands back. And, most importantly, when someone tells you that we should be going to war, he is a fool or a criminal.
Other opinions are available. So, consider that when we get all this stuff about the Greatest Englishman Whoever Lived. Some people may have preferred to get their sons, brothers or husbands back. And, most importantly, when someone tells you that we should be going to war, he is a fool or a criminal.
cardigankid said:
Look, Eric Mc said he wanted to debate Churchill. I’ve given him quite a bit to chew on. If my facts are wrong or argument is incorrect, then tell me, but be prepared to get into the detail. However, as he said himself, the problem with the internet is a discussion rapidly descends into personal abuse, and I suggest that we avoid that.
Not much to debate, really. You don't like Churchill, that much is obvious.cardigankid said:
Churchill never lifted a finger to save any of them, before or during WW2.
Well, what would have been your suggestion? On the other hand, attempting to overthrow the perpetrators is "lifting a finger".cardigankid said:
Whether pushing Britain into war with Germany saved any of them or caused their demise is debatable, never mind all the others who died, or the deliberate destruction without any military reason whatsoever of a large number of German cities, resulting in men, women and children suffocated crushed and burnt to death. Who are the war criminals? Don’t be deluded, everyone. What is for certain is that Churchill pushed for the war. He truly said that all he had to offer was blood toil sweat and tears.
"Pushing Britain into war" - I think you'll find that was Hitler. But I do see, within the structure of your "argument", how that nugget fits in."...or caused their demise is debatable" - again, I think you'll find that was was Hitler & his cohorts.
"...never mind all the others who died, or the deliberate destruction without any military reason whatsoever of a large number of German cities, resulting in men, women and children suffocated crushed and burnt to death" - yes, well that part does have some merit for debate. However given the nature of "total war", this sort of question has no right answer. It's a bit of the paradox that results from war.
"Who are the war criminals? Don’t be deluded, everyone." - yet again, that would be Hitler & his cohorts. With some Stalin & the Japs thrown in.
"What is for certain is that Churchill pushed for the war. He truly said that all he had to offer was blood toil sweat and tears." - yep, see, I think you've misunderstood this, which sort of explains the construct of your argument.
Am I a fan of Churchill? Not particularly. But he was the leader we (the Great Britain of the day) had at the time. As others have said, "he was the leader we needed at the time" & thank God we did.
War in Europe in the mid 20th C was inevitable, given the aspirations of two of the most pernicious leaders of the day. One eventually shot himself. The other was Stalin.
All in my opinion, of course.
Oh, and if you want to avoid unpleasant responses to your posts, best not to suggest that readers not agreeing with you are "deluded".
cardigankid said:
I'm simply telling you the facts. You can dispute the facts or you can dispute the reasoning.
No, you're doing far more than that.Your statements may contain some facts, but mainly your opinion.
cardigankid said:
Nor did I call anyone deluded.
cardigankid said:
Whether pushing Britain into war with Germany saved any of them or caused their demise is debatable, never mind all the others who died, or the deliberate destruction without any military reason whatsoever of a large number of German cities, resulting in men, women and children suffocated crushed and burnt to death. Who are the war criminals? Don’t be deluded, everyone.
I think you did.You are expressing the opinion that there was no reason for the bombing of Germany at that point, in those places, other than Churchill's desire for genocide. You have every right to make that claim.
You can in part, thank Churchill for that.
Topbuzz said:
Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War": How Britain Lost Its Empire and the West Lost the World
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Churchill-Hitler-Unnecess...
Very interesting book. Lots of info and sources for further investigation.
Thanks for this.https://www.amazon.co.uk/Churchill-Hitler-Unnecess...
Very interesting book. Lots of info and sources for further investigation.
cardigankid said:
I applaud the sentiment but there is a big danger of living in the past boys. As far as most Aussies are concerned today Britain is little more than a quaint amusement park. Maybe there’s one on here who might like to comment.
This topic is not about Brexit but bearing in mind that the UK ditched empire preference a long time ago in favour of the EEC why do you think they would want us back now. And are we really any more than the whining Poms with an unjustified sense of entitlement that they are inclined to joke about?
If this has achieved anything it may have given the sniggering classes who think all they have to do is to mention Churchill or ‘the War’ to make other nations feel inferior something to consider.
Seriously, where's your evidence?This topic is not about Brexit but bearing in mind that the UK ditched empire preference a long time ago in favour of the EEC why do you think they would want us back now. And are we really any more than the whining Poms with an unjustified sense of entitlement that they are inclined to joke about?
If this has achieved anything it may have given the sniggering classes who think all they have to do is to mention Churchill or ‘the War’ to make other nations feel inferior something to consider.
Your posts pervade an agenda, despite your protestations.
cardigankid said:
Bacon Is Proof said:
Perhaps you've also heard differing reports to those made to me by my Jewish family about the death camps?
What did great uncle Günter tell you?
You are Hermann the German and I claim my five pounds.
I think we can end this folly now.
I said at the outset that the Nazis actions could not be justified, I have repeated that frequently, that is not the point here, but others keep trying to make it the issue. I am saying that Churchill was a war criminal, and as stated in my first post, got a lot of innocent people killed. This is not about Poland or Death Camps. What did great uncle Günter tell you?
You are Hermann the German and I claim my five pounds.
I think we can end this folly now.
That's what Churchill hand a hand in affording you.
The right to say things like that, no matter how banal & wrong, without getting a knock on the door from the authorities.
In the meantime:
98elise said:
What radar beams were they detecting in 1940? I'm pretty sure Germany didn't have radar in aircraft until a much later in the war (after finding it in a downed RAF aircraft)
Probably this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams98elise said:
Smiler. said:
98elise said:
What radar beams were they detecting in 1940? I'm pretty sure Germany didn't have radar in aircraft until a much later in the war (after finding it in a downed RAF aircraft)
Probably this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_BeamsGassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff