British Empire in a 1000 years

[Martial Arts Man]

In 1000 years time, do you think that students will study the British Empire in the same way that the Classical Empires still fascinate us today?

Will the British Empire even be mentioned?


It is impossible to know how the sands of time will change humanity's perspective.


I am of the mind however, that the British Empire will go down in ancient history as "The first truly global empire" and the "Empire that modernised the world".


Am I letting what is left of my patriotism cloud my judgement?



ETA: sorry for putting the "a" in the thread title.

Edited by Martial Arts Man on Tuesday 31st March 11:23

[Martial Arts Man]

drivin_me_nuts said:

Doubt it somehow. More about trade and petty bickerings. Think about it for a moment, British empure mentioned in the same words as the Roman, Greek and Persian empires, to name but three.

In the history of spiteful bickerings between Germany and Russia it will be mentioned, but it has left little standing by way of memories, physical, spiritual or emotional.

Perhaps what will be told will be, just like many others, once it 'fell', it became a mere shadow of it's once great past ...

I watch many tv documentaries about Ancient engineering and scientific accomplishments. I have books by Plato and Homer on my deak right now as we speak.

It isn't beyond imagination for there to be similar in the future, concentrating on our engineering and scientific progress, of which there is a great deal.

With regard to architecture.....well we just won't ever know what will remain standing throughout the next millennium.

Remember, we "forgot" most of our classical knowledge for many centuries after the decline of Rome ( we can thank those "evil" muslims for keeping the knowledge circulating).

As I said in my initial post, historical perspective is unpredictable!


My problem is, that if we don't count Britain, what other major, globally significant (something even the Romans couldn't do (for whatever reason)) empire could be classified as having had an impact?

Surely somebody must count?


Or is there nothing between Rome and USA that really matters?

Edited by Martial Arts Man on Tuesday 31st March 11:55

[Martial Arts Man]

350GT said:

Bad is hardly the word to describe the british Empire. Compare it to the Spanish, french, etc, and their travels abroad, we were bloody lovely folks. Whereas they treated their new colonies as a business venture, and never really set it up as a 'home' they never held it up as such. Britain pretty much took another stance, and made each bit a 'bit of britain' for want of a better phrase. yes, there will always be the occasional moment of nastiness, but in the scale of things, we were hardly barbaric.

Maybe that is the difference then between memorable empires and the second tier.

Rome and Britain both imparted positive cultural benefits wherever they went. Empires such as Japan, and perhaps even Spain were more concerned with pillaging wealth and resource as an absolute priority.

Essentially leaving a legacy in the places one conquers is the difference.

I think Britain passes that test.

[Martial Arts Man]

jammy_basturd said:

How long did Rome's empire last? Ours was what, about 100 years?

That is up for debate.

If you start at Augustus (27BC) and end at 476 AD, it's just over 500 years.

You could argue that the Holy Roman Empire (-1453) was a continuation , although I would disagree with that theory.


I think it is an interesting point, the time aspect. My issue is that as history gets closer to where we are now, the speed of change seems to hot up. Factoring this into an argument can be very tough as there isn't really a right answer.

[Martial Arts Man]

chris watton said:

jammy_basturd said:

How long did Rome's empire last? Ours was what, about 100 years?

You have to bare in mind the different times. The world in the 18th Century onwards was fast becoming very small, and movement was easy compared to Ancient times. Rome was fighting with its neighbour city states, that were no more than a few miles away for over a hundred years before slowly progressing accross Italy also, most ships just skirted the coastline, and wern't designed for vast overseas ventures.

The Greeks even more so.

Yet we consider their place in history as secure.

[Martial Arts Man]

350GT said:

jammy_basturd said:

How long did Rome's empire last? Ours was what, about 100 years?

A air bit more than that, really. It depends what you see as the beginning of the Empire. Was it the North American colonies? Was it India, or Africa? It could be as far back as the early 1600's... So more like 300 ish years.

I reckon the defeat of the Spanish Armada should be considered the beginning. So 1588.

Spain was THE dominant European power at the time; it never fully recovered from the Armada catastrophe.

Funnily enough, it is has been suggested that the Spanish crown had borrowed so much money, from banks I might add, to fund the war that when the outcome was concluded, it was impossible to recover.

Remind you of anything?

[Martial Arts Man]

chris watton said:

Martial Arts Man said:

chris watton said:

jammy_basturd said:

How long did Rome's empire last? Ours was what, about 100 years?

You have to bare in mind the different times. The world in the 18th Century onwards was fast becoming very small, and movement was easy compared to Ancient times. Rome was fighting with its neighbour city states, that were no more than a few miles away for over a hundred years before slowly progressing accross Italy also, most ships just skirted the coastline, and wern't designed for vast overseas ventures.

The Greeks even more so.

Yet we consider their place in history as secure.

True, but the Greeks never learnt from their mistakes of bickering and squabbling with each other, and the more stable Republic of Rome squashed them very easily in a short space of time, at least compared to their wars with Carthage.

Also we need to be clear that there were both Athenian and Macedonian Empires, perhaps even Spartan too (more dominian with those fellas).

The Athenian Empires were very short lived as you say.


My point really was that although their timelines aren't that long and that in the modern sense, their empires rather small, we still remember and study them with vigour. Thereby nullifying any suggestion that Britain's empire was not of great enough length to qualify.


Would you say there is any merit to the argument that Rome and Greece are and should be studied together as one is a continuation and rebranding of the other?

[Martial Arts Man]

Asterix said:

Very interesting subject.

As mentioned, the other 'great' empires seemed to have been massively important yet their actual sphere's of influence very relatively small. I think of the 'classic' empires the Mongol empire of Ghengis Khan held the greatest area at it's peak.

I think the British Empire is unique in that it was the first global empire that stretched to every continent. It also changed those continents for good by introducing the technology of the industrial revolution.

The fist Industrial Empire?

Perhaps we will distinguish British from Classical in this way.

[Martial Arts Man]

Asterix said:

s2art said:

As it was the biggest Empire ever seen it surely will be in all the history books. Britain effectively created the modern world, including the concept of freedom and democracy. And, of course, made Cricket and Football global sports.

I think the Greek's would probably want a word about Democracy being an English concept.

And there's was a far better system IMHO.

Pure democracy.

[Martial Arts Man]

Traveller said:

Oh yea and we will take the best of your society and make them slaves. Democracy is a beautiful thing in action.

Remember, the British "Empire" invented Concentration camps, must have been spreading all that democracy through re education.

Take the best of society and make them slaves?

Are you sure about that now?


Concentration camps are better than the method of Britain's forebearers.......extinction. Rather civilised in comparison

[Martial Arts Man]

Traveller said:

350GT said:

Slaves? Are you sure? The backing for this is what, exactly?

Slave trade, West Africa, west Indies.. wonder how all that sugar was farmed..... because britain abolished slavery does not mean it did not profit hugely from it. There are positives to the empire but from the rest of the world perspective, it will not be remembered fondly.


http://www.history.ac.uk/ihr/Focus/Slavery/article...

Time is a wonderful healer. 1000 years is a very long time.

For instance, we don't exactly have a national vendetta against the Italians do we?

The slave trade was awful, yes, but not just out of the league of Classical slavery, but playing a different sport I'm afraid.

[Martial Arts Man]

JagLover said:

Traveller said:

a rather British centric view here, the rest of the world might not remember the "empire" quite as fondly. Even your friendly neighbours, Ireland are not quite so enamoured with the great empire.

We are talking about in a thousand years time.

That is plenty of time for Nationalist resentments over being ruled by Foreigners to dissapate and more objective judgements be made.

As I said earlier, we don't exactly have any visible resentment of Rome's little British experiment.

[Martial Arts Man]

Bushmaster said:

s2art said:

Bushmaster said:

I very much doubt the British Empire will be placed by history in the same league as the Greek and Roman empires. There are a few reasons for my opinion:

1. Longevity - the British Empire lasted for only a few decades, say from the end of the Napoleonic Wars in 1815 to Indian independence in 1947. The Classical empires lasted for hundred of years.

2. Monuments - The Greeks and Romans left a legacy of huge monumental architecture in the places they conquered. We left a few railway lines.

3. Golden Ageism - The Classical empires were looked back on as a Golden Age, as the world reverted to the dark ages. There is little chance of anyone looking upon the BE as a Golden Age.

4. Great Ideas - The Classical Empires gave birth to new ideas about democracy, statehood, mathematics, philosophy, sciences, etc. The BE gave the world cheap cotton.

5. Safety - The Classical empires were completely demolished and left no real continuity and so the rest of the world could safely respect them as you can respect a dead enemy. The ghost of the BE will linger on as long as the UK remains independent and so the rest of the world is not in a position to respect the BE.

IMHO the British Empire will be seen as a time when the Industrial Revolution gave Britain a slight technological head-start over the rest of the world and they used this head-start to take advantage of less developed countries economically.

1) The British Empire spanned approx 500 years in one form or another.
2) You are joking. Take a look at the Imperial buildings and monuments in India.
3) Many African countries DO look at it as a golden age. Sierra Leone recently asked to come back.
4) Joking again. It was Britain that took democracy,science and industry to huge sections of the world. Not to mention the particular brand of pragmatic philosophy that Britain evolved.
5) Its already happening.

1. Not really. You are going back to Tudor times here and back then Spain was the dominant power by far. England was tiny in comparison.

2. But not more impressive than the TAj Mahal are they. Not awesome like Roman or Greek temples.

3. Great. When the USA, Australia, New Zealand and Oz ask to come back, you may be onto something.

4. But a better spinning jenny or a steam engine is not a Great Idea.

5. ?

OP, I'm not sure you're right about all this....

1) Spain's decline began 1588 with the Amarda. This event also allowed the rise of the British Empire as a direct consequence. The Tudor dynasty revolutionised England and paved the way.

2) Perhaps you only see those classical buildings as better because they are exactly that, classical. In 1000 years, BE buildings will be few and far between. In terms of volume, the BE built many many times more impressive architectural constructions than the Romans, for instance.

3) How do you know? Can you say for sure that in 500 years we will not be in a relative dark age?

4) I think to suggest that the BE contributed nothing in the way of technology is a point not worth answering.

5) Are you aware of an empire called "The Holy Roman Empire"? I don't fully understand this point, in truth.


You clearly have some ideological issues with this subject as your arguments aren't really supported by good history.

May I ask what really annoys you about the BE?

[Martial Arts Man]

350GT said:

Talk about the topic at hand. Bring that up during the current topic of education shows you have an agenda of some sort. And no, maybe if those guys had an education, they would have figured out what the machine gun was. Presumably you would have found it perfectly acceptable for 50 soldiers to die against overwhelming odds? It's called technology. Would you argue the toss against siege towers, undermining a castle, battle formations? tactics of any sort?

The fact that Colonial natives were regularly educated at Sandhurst says a lot also.

[Martial Arts Man]

Bushmaster said:

A pictorial tour of some of the British Empire to warm the cockles.

Edited by Bushmaster on Tuesday 31st March 23:22

Those pictures are what makes me proud to be British.

Just to add to your wonderful picture:

Half a league, half a league,
  Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
  Rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death
  Rode the six hundred.

'Forward, the Light Brigade!'
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldiers knew
  Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
  Rode the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
  Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
  Rode the six hundred.

Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turned in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army while
  All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reel'd from the sabre-stroke
Shatter'd and sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
  Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
  Left of six hundred.

When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
  All the world wonder'd.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
  Noble six hundred!

[Martial Arts Man]

The British Bayoneteers- A Napoleonic war song.

Eyes right, my jolly field boys,
Who British bayonets bear,
To teach your foes to yield boys,
When British steel they dare!
Now fill the glass, for the toast of toasts
Shall be drunk with the cheer of cheers,
Hurrah, hurrah, hurrah, hurrah!
For the British bayoneteers.

Great guns have shot and shell, boys,
Dragoons have sabres bright.
The artillery fire's like hell, boys,
And the horse like devils fight.
But neither light nor heavy horse
Nor thundering cannoneers,
Can stem the tide of the foeman's pride,
Like the British bayoneteers!

The English arm is strong, boys,
The Irish arm is tough.
The Scotsman's blow the French well know,
Is struck by sterling stuff.
And when before the enemy
Their shining steel appears,
Goodbye! goodbye! how they run, how they run!
From the British bayoneteers!

[Martial Arts Man]

[pic]http://www.britishtourplans.com/uploaded_images/dreamstimeweb_447882-769301.jpg[pic]

[pic]http://www.freefoto.com/images/806/12/806_12_7808---Saltburn-Pier_web.jpg?&amp%3Bk=Saltburn+Pier[pic]

[pic]http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ipm/images/2008Tube.gif[pic]

[pic]http://ezwieback.com/klotchman/graphics/RMS_Victorian.jpg[pic]

[Martial Arts Man]

350GT said:

Martial Arts Man said:

Sorted...

You're a good man.

PH crashed on me for an hour!