Traders: Millions by the minute. BBC i Player
Discussion
TraderGuy said:
There was a guy at saxo who said they love the customers who are trading all the time, and making regular profits, as they make the money from the spread. IMO, they love deluded customers with deep pockets. They dont want winners. If you win regularly, you will encounter such poor technical services, you will quit, which they want.
I actually thought Saxo came over really badly in the program. I've never used them but always heard good things about the platform - but on the show they didn't look that professional
twinturboz said:
TraderGuy said:
In the other episode, the "applied trading" training group, imo were failed traders. If they are trading NFP with finger on a mouse is a joke, as no broker will fill you immediately at a decent price.
Bit harsh on the failed traders bit no? Yes it moves damn quick once the numbers cross and you won't get the immediate fill but you could still catch part of the larger move, putting aside the fact that your likely to get whipped about and its a risky trade. TraderGuy said:
If you want to make serious money trading, learn price action trading. Thats all there is. No indicators, no systems, no gimmicks, just price action.
Agree with you that price action is key but no indicators? Do you not track volume, moving averages etc? I suspect I'm misunderstanding what you mean by no systems, are you talking algos?
You just need a clean chart, no indicator windows. You can have a moving average just for direction, but after a while you know if price is going up or down. I trade tick charts so they are a proxy for volume, but as spot forex is decentralized there is no common marketplace. You can look at volume in futures, but alot of that market is used for hedging spot, so not great.
g4ry13 said:
So I take it you're Australia based?
I used to get 0.9, but then they opened it up. I could probably get lower on IB but then that comes at a cost. So you read the Heikin Ashi book? I better stop this talk or i'll get the itch again
I am uk based. But chose the aussie brokers due to the australian regulatory environment. Meaning your money is secure and they seem to play fairer.I used to get 0.9, but then they opened it up. I could probably get lower on IB but then that comes at a cost. So you read the Heikin Ashi book? I better stop this talk or i'll get the itch again
TraderGuy said:
In the other episode, the "applied trading" training group, imo were failed traders. If they are trading NFP with finger on a mouse is a joke, as no broker will fill you immediately at a decent price.
I'm presuming you mean Amplify trading during the Fed? If so they were looking at the live market, direct market access with no brokers at all.There are still hundreds, if not thousands, of guys around the city sitting in front of the screens for NPF or Fed etc and making huge amounts of money. Don't dismiss something just because you don't do it.
R11ysf said:
TraderGuy said:
In the other episode, the "applied trading" training group, imo were failed traders. If they are trading NFP with finger on a mouse is a joke, as no broker will fill you immediately at a decent price.
I'm presuming you mean Amplify trading during the Fed? If so they were looking at the live market, direct market access with no brokers at all.There are still hundreds, if not thousands, of guys around the city sitting in front of the screens for NPF or Fed etc and making huge amounts of money. Don't dismiss something just because you don't do it.
NFP is a dead report these days, used to be good 5years ago, but doesnt sway FOMC sentiment, so a 50pip bit of volatility, but no the 150pip of a few years back. Can a noob with a finger on a mouse beat a HFT fund who spend millions on technology, whith 0.00s latency, with an algorithm to linguistically disseminate a report in under 0.001 of a second?
So you are looking post-spike, but even then rhetorical news doesnt give logical trading decisions.
You're not trying to beat them. That trade hasn't existed for 7 or 8 years. You used to be able to scalp the number in the dax and now it is 15 ticks wide going in to the number. What you can do though is get on the second wave, or hit it on the revision, or put bids and offers out and get filled both sides.
There are many ways to skin a cat and I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't want to be sitting and poised in front of your machine in one of the most volatile periods of the month.
There are many ways to skin a cat and I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't want to be sitting and poised in front of your machine in one of the most volatile periods of the month.
R11ysf said:
There are many ways to skin a cat and I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't want to be sitting and poised in front of your machine in one of the most volatile periods of the month.
Just too unpredictable. So take an FOMC report, this happens a lot, initial spike down (algos trading), then up (reflection), then dies off a bit. Opportunities exist all the time in market, so why trade at the most difficult time?Fair enough if you cant make money from 1 min candle spikes up and down, but there are easier/more predictable times to trade.
R11ysf said:
I'm presuming you mean Amplify trading during the Fed? If so they were looking at the live market, direct market access with no brokers at all.
There are still hundreds, if not thousands, of guys around the city sitting in front of the screens for NPF or Fed etc and making huge amounts of money. Don't dismiss something just because you don't do it.
+1000. I've traded the SPY around NFP or Fed statements and made money. Like I said not the easiest trade but there's definitely money to be made there. There are still hundreds, if not thousands, of guys around the city sitting in front of the screens for NPF or Fed etc and making huge amounts of money. Don't dismiss something just because you don't do it.
TraderGuy said:
Just too unpredictable. So take an FOMC report, this happens a lot, initial spike down (algos trading), then up (reflection), then dies off a bit. Opportunities exist all the time in market, so why trade at the most difficult time?
Fair enough if you cant make money from 1 min candle spikes up and down, but there are easier/more predictable times to trade.
Depends on what your strategy is and what your trading. If we take your example above literally, if thats the usual pattern why not buy the spike down and take advantage of that opportunity. The beauty about the markets is that theres 1000's of ways to profit from it, if it doesn't necessarily work for you doesn't mean others won't have an edge there.Fair enough if you cant make money from 1 min candle spikes up and down, but there are easier/more predictable times to trade.
Edited by twinturboz on Friday 26th September 13:33
I thought I would join this discussion as well as I too am a full time trader. I agree with most of what trader guy says however I think the most important element is to understand what sort of trader you are. I always saw myself as a scalper (I started in the pits at LIFFE working for a French Bank) but once I left the floor I found I sucked at it. I spent ages trying to find the right time frame and then I started using renko. There are tons of problems with renko but it works for me. As for indicators, I used to disdain them all as they all lag - or repaint and only tell you what the PA is telling you anyway. However I now use two that basically show me the trend in larger renko boxes and longer term charts. None of it is rocket science. No retail trader has a chance with rocket science as you are up against the "Big Swinging Dicks" as the Salomon Bros boss used to call his top guys. The real advantage a retail trader has is that he or she can pick and chose. On the floor or a trading desk you are expected to perform. You cannot say "I do not like the action today so I am doing nothing" (that is not the same as not being able to pull the trigger, a big noon problem). You can pick and chose. As for the programs, no doubt it will fuel lots of people looking to make "easy money", maye that was the point of it. In fact few things are harder to do then trading.
twinturboz said:
Depends on what your strategy is and what your trading. If we take your example above literally, if thats the usual pattern why not buy the spike down and take advantage of that opportunity. The beauty about the markets is that theres 1000's of ways to profit from it, if it doesn't necessarily work for you doesn't mean others won't have an edge there.
Edited by twinturboz on Friday 26th September 13:33
Zoog said:
I thought I would join this discussion as well as I too am a full time trader. I agree with most of what trader guy says however I think the most important element is to understand what sort of trader you are. I always saw myself as a scalper (I started in the pits at LIFFE working for a French Bank) but once I left the floor I found I sucked at it. I spent ages trying to find the right time frame and then I started using renko. There are tons of problems with renko but it works for me. As for indicators, I used to disdain them all as they all lag - or repaint and only tell you what the PA is telling you anyway. However I now use two that basically show me the trend in larger renko boxes and longer term charts. None of it is rocket science. No retail trader has a chance with rocket science as you are up against the "Big Swinging Dicks" as the Salomon Bros boss used to call his top guys. The real advantage a retail trader has is that he or she can pick and chose. On the floor or a trading desk you are expected to perform. You cannot say "I do not like the action today so I am doing nothing" (that is not the same as not being able to pull the trigger, a big noon problem). You can pick and chose. As for the programs, no doubt it will fuel lots of people looking to make "easy money", maye that was the point of it. In fact few things are harder to do then trading.
Never tried Renko, but good points. You need to know when you have an edge, and know when you dont. Also the little guy, shouldnt have a problem with size, where Banks would, and longer-term positional plays are more viable for them.twinturboz said:
Depends on what your strategy is and what your trading. If we take your example above literally, if thats the usual pattern why not buy the spike down and take advantage of that opportunity. The beauty about the markets is that theres 1000's of ways to profit from it, if it doesn't necessarily work for you doesn't mean others won't have an edge there.
Edited by twinturboz on Friday 26th September 13:33
Interestingly, you can use myfxbok to get stats on your trading, and eliminate unprofitable times of day, pairs, days of the week from your trading, optimizing your technique even more.
Zoog said:
The real advantage a retail trader has is that he or she can pick and chose. On the floor or a trading desk you are expected to perform. You cannot say "I do not like the action today so I am doing nothing" (that is not the same as not being able to pull the trigger, a big noon problem). You can pick and chose. As for the programs, no doubt it will fuel lots of people looking to make "easy money", maye that was the point of it. In fact few things are harder to do then trading.
The problem is though that you can't pick and choose much. When you have bills to pay and trying to earn a living, there is pressure to trade. You can't really sit out a week because you don't like what's going on. It's feasible, especially if you're trading a very good size. But most will feel a pressure to start trading when sitting idle and bills racking up. I believe the advantage of a retail trader / investor is actually time. Banks/Funds have pressure to close positions fast, by the end of the day / week / month. The retail has the luxury of being able to hold a position and know they don't have to be out of it by the end of day / week etc. If anything, watching that programme brought home how damn hard it can be. I really didn't see any success stories from it. They certainly didn't paint it as an easy life where you're just going to check your computer every now and then, raking in the cash and buying a new Aston Martin every week.
g4ry13 said:
You can't really sit out a week because you don't like what's going on. It's feasible, especially if you're trading a very good size. But most will feel a pressure to start trading when sitting idle and bills racking up.
That's exactly the type of discipline you need though, realising when the market doesn't favour you or trades don't suit your strategy. Trading for the sake of trading or chasing trades rarely work out all that great. Sometimes you have to sit and let the market come to you. As they say sitting in cash is a position too.
I think the one thing all of us on this thread that trade for a living agree on is that it's far from easy. It takes serious hours and dedication, not to mention you just need a certain mental strength to deal with the inevitable punches that are going to come your way.
There is no way this is a get rich quick scheme, but with the right attitude and and tools it is possible to make a career out of trading. I still believe that anyone can learn to trade the markets.
Edited by twinturboz on Friday 26th September 15:58
twinturboz said:
g4ry13 said:
You can't really sit out a week because you don't like what's going on. It's feasible, especially if you're trading a very good size. But most will feel a pressure to start trading when sitting idle and bills racking up.
That's exactly the type of discipline you need though, realising when the market doesn't favour you or trades don't suit your strategy. Trading for the sake of trading or chasing trades rarely work out all that great. Sometimes you have to sit and let the market come to you. As they say sitting in cash is a position too.
Edited by twinturboz on Friday 26th September 15:47
Sitting in cash may be a position which doesn't lose you money, but neither does it make you money either.
Hi everyone
I just joined up after searching online about this particular programme. (As to being a piston head, I'm just a BMW guy at the moment
)
On the second documentary, there was a segment there about some platform called "etoro" where you can basically copy day traders who have a successful history or making money on that particular website. In theory, you can't go wrong (?)
To those who trade for a living, any of you guys have any views on it?
Looks like it could be at least "too good to be true" but I want to have a dabble in this type of trading with some spare cash seeing as the Bank of England is determined to keep us all at 0.5%. I don't think I'm clever enough to do the trading myself though.
In more simple terms, how does someone with a bit of spare cash get into this day trading, without doing it themselves. I should clarify I already have some investments in normal funds and isas etc and am looking for something a bit more racy and quick profit making.
Cheers all
I just joined up after searching online about this particular programme. (As to being a piston head, I'm just a BMW guy at the moment
) On the second documentary, there was a segment there about some platform called "etoro" where you can basically copy day traders who have a successful history or making money on that particular website. In theory, you can't go wrong (?)
To those who trade for a living, any of you guys have any views on it?
Looks like it could be at least "too good to be true" but I want to have a dabble in this type of trading with some spare cash seeing as the Bank of England is determined to keep us all at 0.5%. I don't think I'm clever enough to do the trading myself though.
In more simple terms, how does someone with a bit of spare cash get into this day trading, without doing it themselves. I should clarify I already have some investments in normal funds and isas etc and am looking for something a bit more racy and quick profit making.
Cheers all
Really sorry but I think if you need to trade - I mean to pay the bills - you are dead. Just my opinion. The awful truth is that the less you need to trade to live, the easier it is as pressure is a killer. I am not suggesting you need millions but what you have as trading money, you should be prepared to risk. If that money is for groceries or the gas bill there is no way you can stick to the discipline required. If you have another source of income and have some money that you could afford to lose and want to learn, try a micro account. The spreads suck and there are lots of scammy brokers but there are some OK ones that do it. I do not believe in paper trading unless its to test a strategy. There is no stress in paper trading. A micro or mini account is much better because at least its real time however you must be in a position to afford the loss. Learning to trade takes a long time and requires discipline and consistency and the price you pay are the losses. Most who have made it started by making losses, then they broke even for a while and then very slowly they started to make a profit. I am sure many will not agree but that is my experience and I have been in this game a long time.
Zoog said:
Really sorry but I think if you need to trade - I mean to pay the bills - you are dead. Just my opinion. The awful truth is that the less you need to trade to live, the easier it is as pressure is a killer. I am not suggesting you need millions but what you have as trading money, you should be prepared to risk. If that money is for groceries or the gas bill there is no way you can stick to the discipline required. If you have another source of income and have some money that you could afford to lose and want to learn, try a micro account. The spreads suck and there are lots of scammy brokers but there are some OK ones that do it. I do not believe in paper trading unless its to test a strategy. There is no stress in paper trading. A micro or mini account is much better because at least its real time however you must be in a position to afford the loss. Learning to trade takes a long time and requires discipline and consistency and the price you pay are the losses. Most who have made it started by making losses, then they broke even for a while and then very slowly they started to make a profit. I am sure many will not agree but that is my experience and I have been in this game a long time.
x1000. Scared money never wins.Curious Trader said:
In more simple terms, how does someone with a bit of spare cash get into this day trading, without doing it themselves.
Put bluntly.. you don't. No experience of etorro but the idea that you simply copy another trader is not a long lasting solution. Firstly who is this trader? Whats their track record? Secondly if they make a mistake and blow up you'll blindly follow. Just mirroring a trade teaches you nothing, you won't understand the reasons why that person entered the trade or what their strategy is assuming that etorro is not offering mentorship or even explaining the rational behind the trade.
Your best bet is like you've already done put it in funds and let them manage it.
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