£30k for investment

[NoelWatson]

Hitch78 said:

Seems I might be best sitting on it and taking the inflation hit then buying something in twelve to twenty four months when the panic is over. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Are we talking about the worst or best investment?

[Hitch78]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Surely the inflationary hit is limited if my sole target for the cash is property which is decreasing in value - regardless of what inflation does over the period?

[Hitch78]

So you are predicting a Jap style generation long slump?

[youngsyr]

I'm suprised that no-one has mentioned the government's solar feed in tariff?

Moneysavingsupermarket said:

Get paid to generate solar power

If you can shell out c.£12,000 for your own system, it’s possible to grab c.£23,000 in payments for the energy you produce.

This is all about the Govt’s new ‘feed-in tariff’ scheme. The scheme, which replaced solar panel grants, means electricity companies have to pay people who produce electricity from renewable energy sources such as wind and the sun.

It's reckoned that you'll get £800/year though this is not guaranteed, it's an estimate, so you must do your sums first. The key to this is ...

The system costs £12,500, but over 25 years the feed-in payments could net you £23,000.

How feed-in tariffs work

Households with approved solar panel schemes are paid for the electricity they generate, even if they use all of it themselves. These payments, which the Energy Saving Trust estimates at £800/year, are in addition to the bill savings.

For techies, the feed-in tariff pays you up to 41.3p per kWh (kilowatt–hour - one unit of electricity) for energy generated from solar panels. Then there’s 3p bonus for every unit you don’t use and feed back to the grid. That’s considerably more than the typical 13p per unit it costs to buy electricity from the your provider.

The Govt’s promised that the feed-in tariff payment for solar panels will run for 25 years and will rise with inflation (linked to the Retail Price Index). It’s also tax-free. So for a c.£12,000 outlay, you get back £23,000 – that's £11,000 profit.

[ShadownINja]

youngsyr said:

I'm suprised that no-one has mentioned the government's solar feed in tariff?

We're not benefits scroungers.

[youngsyr]

ShadownINja said:

youngsyr said:

I'm suprised that no-one has mentioned the government's solar feed in tariff?

We're not benefits scroungers.

I don't follow?

[ShadownINja]

youngsyr said:

ShadownINja said:

youngsyr said:

I'm suprised that no-one has mentioned the government's solar feed in tariff?

We're not benefits scroungers.

I don't follow?

Think about it.

[youngsyr]

ShadownINja said:

youngsyr said:

ShadownINja said:

youngsyr said:

I'm suprised that no-one has mentioned the government's solar feed in tariff?

We're not benefits scroungers.

I don't follow?

Think about it.

...or you could stop wasting everyone's time and simply explain an extremely oscure statement.

This is the finance forum, not the Derren Brown forum.

[Fume troll]

youngsyr said:

I'm suprised that no-one has mentioned the government's solar feed in tariff?

Moneysavingsupermarket said:

Get paid to generate solar power

If you can shell out c.£12,000 for your own system, it’s possible to grab c.£23,000 in payments for the energy you produce.

This is all about the Govt’s new ‘feed-in tariff’ scheme. The scheme, which replaced solar panel grants, means electricity companies have to pay people who produce electricity from renewable energy sources such as wind and the sun.

It's reckoned that you'll get £800/year though this is not guaranteed, it's an estimate, so you must do your sums first. The key to this is ...

The system costs £12,500, but over 25 years the feed-in payments could net you £23,000.

How feed-in tariffs work

Households with approved solar panel schemes are paid for the electricity they generate, even if they use all of it themselves. These payments, which the Energy Saving Trust estimates at £800/year, are in addition to the bill savings.

For techies, the feed-in tariff pays you up to 41.3p per kWh (kilowatt–hour - one unit of electricity) for energy generated from solar panels. Then there’s 3p bonus for every unit you don’t use and feed back to the grid. That’s considerably more than the typical 13p per unit it costs to buy electricity from the your provider.

The Govt’s promised that the feed-in tariff payment for solar panels will run for 25 years and will rise with inflation (linked to the Retail Price Index). It’s also tax-free. So for a c.£12,000 outlay, you get back £23,000 – that's £11,000 profit.

That's about a 3.4% annualised ROI, and that's ignoring the possibility that these things could break down before your 25 years is up, the government could run out of money to pay you, or the sun doesn't shine as much as you thought it might.

In other words: Rubbish.

Cheers,

FT.

[youngsyr]

Fume troll said:

That's about a 3.4% annualised ROI, and that's ignoring the possibility that these things could break down before your 25 years is up, the government could run out of money to pay you, or the sun doesn't shine as much as you thought it might.

In other words: Rubbish.

Cheers,

FT.

That's some interesting maths skills you've got there, I make £800 p.a. on a £12K investment 6.7% ROI (the return is index linked). Also, if energy prices increase (and who thinks they won't?), the return is greater.

Also, it's not the government that pay you, it's the energy companies.

Apart from that, yours is a sound assessment.

Oh, British Gas clearly think it's a bad idea too, even without the benefit of reduced electricity bills:

http://www.britishgas.co.uk/solaroffers-bg

Edited by youngsyr on Monday 15th November 15:31

[Fume troll]

youngsyr said:

Fume troll said:

That's about a 3.4% annualised ROI, and that's ignoring the possibility that these things could break down before your 25 years is up, the government could run out of money to pay you, or the sun doesn't shine as much as you thought it might.

In other words: Rubbish.

Cheers,

FT.

That's some interesting maths skills you've got there, I make £800 p.a. on a £12K investment 6.7% ROI (the return is index linked). Also, if energy prices increase (and who thinks they won't?), the return is greater.

Also, it's not the government that pay you, it's the energy companies.

Apart from that, yours is a sound assessment.

Oh, British Gas clearly think it's a bad idea too, even without the benefit of reduced electricity bills:

http://www.britishgas.co.uk/solaroffers-bg

Edited by youngsyr on Monday 15th November 15:31

Thanks mate! Yeah, you divided 800 into 12,500 and got 6.7% yes? But what is the value of your original 12k at the end of year 1?

Here's some help:http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/returnoninvestment.asp

And here's one that will do it for you.
http://www.money-zine.com/Calculators/Investment-C...

Yes, fair enough, it will be the energy companies that pay you, but they do so because they are currently required to by law. Feed in tarrifs have been set by the government, not private enterprise. You think the energy companies like paying extra for energy they could produce more cheaply? Probably not. BG included. There's already been one threat to cut them, how long do you think they'll hold out for? Next review is in 2012... hold onto your hat.

http://www.fitariffs.co.uk/FITs/regulation/spendin...

Cheers,

FT.

[DonkeyApple]

Fume troll said:

youngsyr said:

I'm suprised that no-one has mentioned the government's solar feed in tariff?

Moneysavingsupermarket said:

Get paid to generate solar power

If you can shell out c.£12,000 for your own system, it’s possible to grab c.£23,000 in payments for the energy you produce.

This is all about the Govt’s new ‘feed-in tariff’ scheme. The scheme, which replaced solar panel grants, means electricity companies have to pay people who produce electricity from renewable energy sources such as wind and the sun.

It's reckoned that you'll get £800/year though this is not guaranteed, it's an estimate, so you must do your sums first. The key to this is ...

The system costs £12,500, but over 25 years the feed-in payments could net you £23,000.

How feed-in tariffs work

Households with approved solar panel schemes are paid for the electricity they generate, even if they use all of it themselves. These payments, which the Energy Saving Trust estimates at £800/year, are in addition to the bill savings.

For techies, the feed-in tariff pays you up to 41.3p per kWh (kilowatt–hour - one unit of electricity) for energy generated from solar panels. Then there’s 3p bonus for every unit you don’t use and feed back to the grid. That’s considerably more than the typical 13p per unit it costs to buy electricity from the your provider.

The Govt’s promised that the feed-in tariff payment for solar panels will run for 25 years and will rise with inflation (linked to the Retail Price Index). It’s also tax-free. So for a c.£12,000 outlay, you get back £23,000 – that's £11,000 profit.

That's about a 3.4% annualised ROI, and that's ignoring the possibility that these things could break down before your 25 years is up, the government could run out of money to pay you, or the sun doesn't shine as much as you thought it might.

In other words: Rubbish.

Cheers,

FT.

Exactly.

First, the product won't last 25 years.

Second, the tariff won't last 25 years.

So, long story short, you would be pissing your money up the wall.

[ringram]

youngsyr said:

ShadownINja said:

youngsyr said:

ShadownINja said:

youngsyr said:

I'm suprised that no-one has mentioned the government's solar feed in tariff?

We're not benefits scroungers.

I don't follow?

Think about it.

...or you could stop wasting everyone's time and simply explain an extremely oscure statement.

This is the finance forum, not the Derren Brown forum.

Its a knee jerk idiotic reaction to mentally retarded voters who think they like green stuff. Dole out some money to people to use inefficient solar power in an country without sun. Pointless and worthless populist policy that's just wasting more money and creating more debt. I think is the summary

[youngsyr]

Fume troll said:

youngsyr said:

Fume troll said:

That's about a 3.4% annualised ROI, and that's ignoring the possibility that these things could break down before your 25 years is up, the government could run out of money to pay you, or the sun doesn't shine as much as you thought it might.

In other words: Rubbish.

Cheers,

FT.

That's some interesting maths skills you've got there, I make £800 p.a. on a £12K investment 6.7% ROI (the return is index linked). Also, if energy prices increase (and who thinks they won't?), the return is greater.

Also, it's not the government that pay you, it's the energy companies.

Apart from that, yours is a sound assessment.

Oh, British Gas clearly think it's a bad idea too, even without the benefit of reduced electricity bills:

http://www.britishgas.co.uk/solaroffers-bg

Edited by youngsyr on Monday 15th November 15:31

Thanks mate! Yeah, you divided 800 into 12,500 and got 6.7% yes? But what is the value of your original 12k at the end of year 1?

Here's some help:http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/returnoninvestment.asp

And here's one that will do it for you.
http://www.money-zine.com/Calculators/Investment-C...

Yes, fair enough, it will be the energy companies that pay you, but they do so because they are currently required to by law. Feed in tarrifs have been set by the government, not private enterprise. You think the energy companies like paying extra for energy they could produce more cheaply? Probably not. BG included. There's already been one threat to cut them, how long do you think they'll hold out for? Next review is in 2012... hold onto your hat.

http://www.fitariffs.co.uk/FITs/regulation/spendin...

Cheers,

FT.

You should try actually reading the links you post:

Your Source said:

Energy Source: Solar PV
Scale: ≤4 kW retrofit
Generation tariff (p/kwh): 41.3
Duration (years): 25
...
Once a system has been registered, the tariff levels are guaranteed for the period of the tariff and index-linked as described above.

http://www.fitariffs.co.uk/eligible/levels/

The threat to cut the tariffs is for new installations completed after the review, not ones that are in place before that date.

As for the future value of the initial £12K investment, many installations are guaranteed to produce at least 85% of their initial capacity in their 25th year, so their value isn't going to drop off a cliff.

Yes, there are factors to be considered as with any investment, but the fact that well-known companies are looking to jump on the bandwagon without even gaining the full benefits suggests that it should not be dismissed out of hand, and especially simply because of a misunderstanding of how the scheme works.

[youngsyr]

ringram said:

youngsyr said:

ShadownINja said:

youngsyr said:

ShadownINja said:

youngsyr said:

I'm suprised that no-one has mentioned the government's solar feed in tariff?

We're not benefits scroungers.

I don't follow?

Think about it.

...or you could stop wasting everyone's time and simply explain an extremely oscure statement.

This is the finance forum, not the Derren Brown forum.

Its a knee jerk idiotic reaction to mentally retarded voters who think they like green stuff. Dole out some money to people to use inefficient solar power in an country without sun. Pointless and worthless populist policy that's just wasting more money and creating more debt. I think is the summary

As a "green policy" I agree that it's worthless, but that's not what we're discussing here - we are purely concerned with its merits as an investment.

And as I wrote above, the pay outs aren't coming from the government.

[Fume troll]

youngsyr said:

As for the future value of the initial £12K investment, many installations are guaranteed to produce at least 85% of their initial capacity in their 25th year, so their value isn't going to drop off a cliff.

Guaranteed. Honestly? Do you actually believe this? What underwrites this guarantee? And it covers storm damage etc too? Amazing.

youngsyr said:

Yes, there are factors to be considered as with any investment, but the fact that well-known companies are looking to jump on the bandwagon without even gaining the full benefits suggests that it should not be dismissed out of hand, and especially simply because of a misunderstanding of how the scheme works.

They're not jumping on the bandwagon, they are LEGALLY REQUIRED to buy renewable energy at the fixed rates set by the government. That may change.

I take it that you now accept that it's a 3.4% annualised ROI then? And you think that's a good return on £12,500 tied up for 25 years? I'm declaring myself oot.

Cheers,

FT.

[youngsyr]

Fume troll said:

youngsyr said:

As for the future value of the initial £12K investment, many installations are guaranteed to produce at least 85% of their initial capacity in their 25th year, so their value isn't going to drop off a cliff.

Guaranteed. Honestly? Do you actually believe this? What underwrites this guarantee? And it covers storm damage etc too? Amazing.

Where did I say this is a risk-free investment?

I was simply pointing out that your assumption about depreciation of the equipment was simply that, an assumption.

Fume troll said:

youngsyr said:

Yes, there are factors to be considered as with any investment, but the fact that well-known companies are looking to jump on the bandwagon without even gaining the full benefits suggests that it should not be dismissed out of hand, and especially simply because of a misunderstanding of how the scheme works.

They're not jumping on the bandwagon, they are LEGALLY REQUIRED to buy renewable energy at the fixed rates set by the government.

The energy (and other) companies ARE jumping on the band wagon, they are NOT LEGALLY REQUIRED to offer to pay for the PV set up, install it and maintain it whilst giving the home owner the power that is generated from it.

They energy (and other) companies are opting to offer the "rent a roof" scheme because they see it as a worthwhile investment, even if they don't receive the benefit of lower power costs at the property from using the solar PV energy.

Fume troll said:

That may change.

Well, a government guarantee is about as good a guarantee as you're ever going to get and the UK government has guranteed the rates for the duration of the tariff period.

The risk of the government reneging has to be considered of course, but again, I didn't say that this was a risk free investment.

Fume troll said:

I take it that you now accept that it's a 3.4% annualised ROI then? And you think that's a good return on £12,500 tied up for 25 years? I'm declaring myself oot.

Cheers,

FT.

No, I don't. Show me the assumptions behind your calculation and I'll show you why it's too low.

PS: You're certainly living up to your pseudonym well though; I've lost count of the amount of points that you've dropped as soon as I show that you're incorrect. Are you coming around to the idea at all?

Edited by youngsyr on Monday 15th November 17:07

[ringram]

What about maintenance costs?

Are you sure you are going to stay in the same house for 25 years?

Sounds like the LPG argument, looks good until you get a braincell onto the topic.

[youngsyr]

ringram said:

What about maintenance costs?

Are you sure you are going to stay in the same house for 25 years?

Sounds like the LPG argument, looks good until you get a braincell onto the topic.

If you're so convinced that the maintenance costs break this investment, then would you care to post up what they are?

There are also options available if you decide to move, but why let a bit of research stand in the way of an easy write off, eh?

Edited by youngsyr on Monday 15th November 19:50

[groak]

THIS:

1 bedroom flat for sale
Offers in Excess of
£23,000
Gallowgate, Glasgow
Picture 1
Start slideshow
next image1 of 3 previous image
Picture 1
<

* Picture 1
* Picture 2
* Picture 3
*
*

>

* Description
* Map & Schools
* Streetview

Get map and local information Property location Enlarge this map

Nearest stations:
National Train Station logo (0.6 miles)
Duke Street
National Train Station logo (0.8 miles)
Carntyne
National Train Station logo (0.9 miles)
Alexandra Parade

Key features:

* TRADITIONAL FIRST FLOOR
* ONE BEDROOM
* IN NEED OF MODERNISATION
* IDEAL BUY TO LET
* CLOSE TO LOCAL AMENITIES

Full description:


SUMMARY
In need of modernisation, a highly popular traditional first floor flat with accommodation comprising hallway, lounge, bedroom, kitchen and bathroom.


DESCRIPTION
In need of modernisation, a highly popular traditional first floor flat with accommodation comprising hallway, lounge, bedroom, kitchen and bathroom.
Situated within the ever popular and highly desirable Gallowgate district of Glasgow's East End. The property is within proximity of local amenities and transport links. Easy commuting to Glasgow City Centre and further a field via the M8 and M74 motorway link

Hallway
Welcoming hallway with all apartments leading off.

Lounge
Bright spacious lounge with window formation to the front of the property.

Kitchen
The kitchen area has a window formation to the front.

Bedroom
Double bedroom with window formation to rear.

Bathroom
The bathroom has a three piece suite to include w.c, wash hand basin and bath.

Gardens
There are communal gardens to the rear of the property.


Purchase:£23k Cost of purchase:£1k Renovation:£6k Total: £30k

Return: £300-£350 pcm. Net: £250-£300pcm