Brewdog shares
Discussion
Dilution of equity as far as I can tell, this is the bit which seems to confirm that?
Brewdog Prospectus said:
If the Offer is fully subscribed, and is extended to its maximum amount of £50 million, approximately 1,988,071 New B Shares will be issued pursuant to the Offer. In aggregate, these B Shares will represent approximately 2.7% of the total issued Shares in the Company following the Offer (and approximately 15% of the total B Shares in issue as at the date of this document). As at the date of this Securities Note, the B Shares represent approximately 18% of the total issued Shares in the Company, so an existing holder of B Shares who does not subscribe for New B Shares pursuant to the Offer will experience dilution.
https://www.brewdog.com/uk/equityforpunks/tomorrow-raise/documentsCondi said:
Where are they listed then? They're not, I even read the prospectus, let me quote for you....
"BrewDog is not yet listed on any stock exchange so shares can only be sold once a year via our trading platform (see page 24 for details)"
From the prospectus document published by Brewdog - https://www.brewdog.com/uk/equityforpunks/tomorrow...
Yes, you might find someone willing to buy them from you. But its not a listed or freely traded share issue, and my point about them being difficult and opaque to price is true because there is no price discovery. Your mate might give you £15 for them, but is that a good price? Who knows. The company value them at £25 each, but they have an incentive to price them high, so that is hardly a reliable reference. Without any price discovery, or any dividend, you are crowdfunding, not investing.
As a bit of an aside, this discussion raises an interesting aspect for an exchange such as CrowdX which appears to be intent on rekindling the old OFEX model for the crowdfunding market. On paper it seems like a great idea to have a central exchange where people can put up their stock and others step in to buy but I'm intrigued to see how such a business overcomes a couple of significant hurdles:"BrewDog is not yet listed on any stock exchange so shares can only be sold once a year via our trading platform (see page 24 for details)"
From the prospectus document published by Brewdog - https://www.brewdog.com/uk/equityforpunks/tomorrow...
Yes, you might find someone willing to buy them from you. But its not a listed or freely traded share issue, and my point about them being difficult and opaque to price is true because there is no price discovery. Your mate might give you £15 for them, but is that a good price? Who knows. The company value them at £25 each, but they have an incentive to price them high, so that is hardly a reliable reference. Without any price discovery, or any dividend, you are crowdfunding, not investing.
Firstly, the ultra low volumes and abnormally high matching costs due to greater amounts of paperwork per transaction always meant that spreads had to be very high but today's retail market that swims around crowdfunding has an expectation of zero comms and next to no spread. So how do you price the exchange so that it makes money but in a way that doesn't make the punters all go 'full Robinhood' ie instantly accusing of criminality from a position of never being arsed to spend 1 minute to self educate but preferring to join a street mob instead?
Secondly, the entire model of crowdfunding is built upon knowingly and deliberately miss pricing your stock. It only exists because the participants on the other side can be sold a share for vastly inflated values compared to other investors. It is also free money that you never have to repay as well as a mechanism for customer entrapment. That's the entire crux of the model but if you then move those inflated stocks onto an exchange that risks true value being established by an open market then you have a bit of a problem.
Why would a firm that's paying 20p on the £1 for free money want to list and have a fair value put in their stock and an end to selling 1p shares for a £1?
DonkeyApple said:
Secondly, the entire model of crowdfunding is built upon knowingly and deliberately miss pricing your stock. It only exists because the participants on the other side can be sold a share for vastly inflated values compared to other investors. It is also free money that you never have to repay as well as a mechanism for customer entrapment. That's the entire crux of the model but if you then move those inflated stocks onto an exchange that risks true value being established by an open market then you have a bit of a problem.
Of course. Brewdog take it even further than that, because they retain to right to refuse a share transfer. Nominally this is to prevent a big brewer undertaking a hostile takeover, but even still, it is a very sly tactic, because you could find a buyer for your shares and have that transfer declined by the company. Sounds a bit like the Hotel California! The guy who runs it - James whatever - is very clever, and has created this whole image and fabulous customer engagement around Brewdog. It looks to me that he is using "shareholder's" funds to fund what has become a vanity project, with little care for the norms of business like paying people for their capital, or even using that capital to increase profitability.
Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with crowdfunding - I bought into a small cider-maker to help them over lockdown - but I have no expectation of ever getting that money back and it is to my mind written off. That is a very different mindset to "investing" and expecting a return. Brewdog have no plans to go public and no plans to offer dividends. Meanwhile every time they raise capital your shareholding is diluted further, which makes little sense when that money is being raised to plant trees! I also think there is a big difference between crowdfunding a small local business which turns over £100k a year, and a business which could - if it wanted - go to the capital markets and raise millions from banks, but then they'd have to pay a return on that, and while some people are happily giving them money for free why would they want to finance it any other way....
A fool and his money are easily parted. There seem to be a lot of fools at the moment. Crypto thread being exhibit A, your honour.
Condi said:
Of course. Brewdog take it even further than that, because they retain to right to refuse a share transfer. Nominally this is to prevent a big brewer undertaking a hostile takeover, but even still, it is a very sly tactic, because you could find a buyer for your shares and have that transfer declined by the company. Sounds a bit like the Hotel California!
The guy who runs it - James whatever - is very clever, and has created this whole image and fabulous customer engagement around Brewdog. It looks to me that he is using "shareholder's" funds to fund what has become a vanity project, with little care for the norms of business like paying people for their capital, or even using that capital to increase profitability.
Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with crowdfunding - I bought into a small cider-maker to help them over lockdown - but I have no expectation of ever getting that money back and it is to my mind written off. That is a very different mindset to "investing" and expecting a return. Brewdog have no plans to go public and no plans to offer dividends. Meanwhile every time they raise capital your shareholding is diluted further, which makes little sense when that money is being raised to plant trees! I also think there is a big difference between crowdfunding a small local business which turns over £100k a year, and a business which could - if it wanted - go to the capital markets and raise millions from banks, but then they'd have to pay a return on that, and while some people are happily giving them money for free why would they want to finance it any other way....
A fool and his money are easily parted. There seem to be a lot of fools at the moment. Crypto thread being exhibit A, your honour.
Condi very well explained sir The guy who runs it - James whatever - is very clever, and has created this whole image and fabulous customer engagement around Brewdog. It looks to me that he is using "shareholder's" funds to fund what has become a vanity project, with little care for the norms of business like paying people for their capital, or even using that capital to increase profitability.
Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with crowdfunding - I bought into a small cider-maker to help them over lockdown - but I have no expectation of ever getting that money back and it is to my mind written off. That is a very different mindset to "investing" and expecting a return. Brewdog have no plans to go public and no plans to offer dividends. Meanwhile every time they raise capital your shareholding is diluted further, which makes little sense when that money is being raised to plant trees! I also think there is a big difference between crowdfunding a small local business which turns over £100k a year, and a business which could - if it wanted - go to the capital markets and raise millions from banks, but then they'd have to pay a return on that, and while some people are happily giving them money for free why would they want to finance it any other way....
A fool and his money are easily parted. There seem to be a lot of fools at the moment. Crypto thread being exhibit A, your honour.
It was for that reason I never invested in them even though I could have From the start as they shopped with in our wee village shop and came across as 2 nice guys who liked making beer lol
It seems shares are not shares as they get diluted all the time they do a round of crowd funding
I bought in 2013 - there was an opportunity to get out when they got a big chunk of cash from somewhere, I took it and I got my stake back and now have a heap of “free” shares.
Dividends mentioned a few times - a few years ago (when they were still reinvesting but doing well nevertheless) I managed to find published info on profits and number of shares in circulation - suffice to say the dividends most shareholders would be due if returning all of the profits to shareholders wouldn’t cover the stamps to post the cheques out. I suspect the situation is no better now.
The birthday pint is your dividend if you can be arsed to go and get it. And if you do you’ll obviously take a few mates and have more than one - so there’s only one winner there..!
Whether you like the product or not they are trying to do it well - the brewery and labs etc. are well worth a visit if you get the chance.
The BrewDog shareholder forum is a laugh. James throws ideas out there for feedback and (being a tad arrogant) ignores anything remotely negative. Prime example being the massive dedicated sour brewery he is now stuck with when no one likes sour beers.
Dividends mentioned a few times - a few years ago (when they were still reinvesting but doing well nevertheless) I managed to find published info on profits and number of shares in circulation - suffice to say the dividends most shareholders would be due if returning all of the profits to shareholders wouldn’t cover the stamps to post the cheques out. I suspect the situation is no better now.
The birthday pint is your dividend if you can be arsed to go and get it. And if you do you’ll obviously take a few mates and have more than one - so there’s only one winner there..!
Whether you like the product or not they are trying to do it well - the brewery and labs etc. are well worth a visit if you get the chance.
The BrewDog shareholder forum is a laugh. James throws ideas out there for feedback and (being a tad arrogant) ignores anything remotely negative. Prime example being the massive dedicated sour brewery he is now stuck with when no one likes sour beers.
I've been thinking the last week or so that I wouldn't mind getting out of Brewdog - I don't hold a large sum by any means, but I think I'd prefer the money in Premium Bonds to give me that monthly build-up then disappointment!
The online shop deals they've been doing are decent enough for non-shareholders so unless they re-introduce a shareholder discount I see no need for the membership.
Anyone else feeling the same?
The online shop deals they've been doing are decent enough for non-shareholders so unless they re-introduce a shareholder discount I see no need for the membership.
Anyone else feeling the same?
Former employees have gone as far as setting up a website to air thier grievances and concerns.... https://www.punkswithpurpose.org/. Quite a long read, but seems like a litany of allegations of poor working conditions, bullying, mistruths, possible illegality...
Now, there are two sides to every story, and being ex-employees they may have a collection of axes to grind, but it doesn't look good.
Now, there are two sides to every story, and being ex-employees they may have a collection of axes to grind, but it doesn't look good.
abzmike said:
Former employees have gone as far as setting up a website to air thier grievances and concerns.... https://www.punkswithpurpose.org/. Quite a long read, but seems like a litany of allegations of poor working conditions, bullying, mistruths, possible illegality...
Now, there are two sides to every story, and being ex-employees they may have a collection of axes to grind, but it doesn't look good.
It doesn't make for good reading, my nephew is one of the former employees signatures at the end.Now, there are two sides to every story, and being ex-employees they may have a collection of axes to grind, but it doesn't look good.
All that letter does is underpin a strong argument to value the business as a tech company. It could be a letter to Tesla or the FAANGs. 
At least with BrewDog as a customer your main risk is gut ache as opposed to fireballing under a truck that Stevie Wonder could have spotted half a mile away.
Re-rating as a tech company wouldn't just send the shareprice up 100 fold but also dupe the employees into believing everything and being happy to be treated as third world labour while being fobbed off with occasional use of the trendy office beanbag.
At least with BrewDog as a customer your main risk is gut ache as opposed to fireballing under a truck that Stevie Wonder could have spotted half a mile away.
Re-rating as a tech company wouldn't just send the shareprice up 100 fold but also dupe the employees into believing everything and being happy to be treated as third world labour while being fobbed off with occasional use of the trendy office beanbag.
bigandclever said:
Cue lots of “we’re sorry to hear that, we’re striving to be better”. Outwardly anyway. Inwardly it’ll be “meh”.
Get Helen with the big knockers to pull out the platitudes file from the bottoms drawer so you can get a good look at her arse? Then tell Garry the accountant that he's invaluable and that his shares will make him a millionaire so as to keep the schmuck working on minimum wage for another year?Just google "Who's The Boss - Brewdog" for an idea of how he runs that place. I'm not the least bit surprised to see former employees calling him out. He agreed to participate in a BBC2 programme where his employees recruit a new team member. It fits right in with his arty farty social media aura that he runs a forward thinking company. But no, he steamrollered the entire process and stopped an excellent candidate from getting the job because their physical appearance doesn't fit with the brand. It sounds ridiculous but it really happened.
Oh, he's a total arse. Look at his linked for the sort of circle-jerk they have.
Latest post I saw (I don't follow him, but others "like" his posts etc) was how he stayed humble and grounded by sitting on a £9.99 ikea chair they bought when the business was started. And then followed with some "inspirational" quote from someone.
Complete and utter cockwomble, he projects an image of this great company and great person, but really he's very cynical and very ambitious, and no doubt very ruthless. Its all a PR exercise. Has to be as their beer isn't really that good anyway. (ducks)
Latest post I saw (I don't follow him, but others "like" his posts etc) was how he stayed humble and grounded by sitting on a £9.99 ikea chair they bought when the business was started. And then followed with some "inspirational" quote from someone.
Complete and utter cockwomble, he projects an image of this great company and great person, but really he's very cynical and very ambitious, and no doubt very ruthless. Its all a PR exercise. Has to be as their beer isn't really that good anyway.
(ducks) No surprises really, most of these type of companies that were orignally plucky modern startups are led by massive egos. Ice Bath types who believe their own hype and are fantastic at drawing in other people and rinsing investors cash.
Huel, Bol, Graze, Deliveroo etc all have (or did have) an owner led culture where people can only say Yes cos it's the Ceo's baby and he knows best...despite hiring in top talent.
Huel, Bol, Graze, Deliveroo etc all have (or did have) an owner led culture where people can only say Yes cos it's the Ceo's baby and he knows best...despite hiring in top talent.
RanchoGrande said:
No surprises really, most of these type of companies that were orignally plucky modern startups are led by massive egos. Ice Bath types who believe their own hype and are fantastic at drawing in other people and rinsing investors cash.
Huel, Bol, Graze, Deliveroo etc all have (or did have) an owner led culture where people can only say Yes cos it's the Ceo's baby and he knows best...despite hiring in top talent.
Look how well that went for WeWork and Adam whatever-his-name-is!! Huel, Bol, Graze, Deliveroo etc all have (or did have) an owner led culture where people can only say Yes cos it's the Ceo's baby and he knows best...despite hiring in top talent.
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