Crypto Currency Thread (Vol.2)
Discussion
Seventyseven7 said:
Ari said:
Hang On said:
Ari said:
Yes, absolutely correct. But you understand the basic message, yes? Most things have an underlying value, a house, a company, whatever. There is none with crypto, the only value is based on the hope it will be worth more tomorrow. At the point where that stops happening (as it has for every other similar scheme in the past from tulip bulbs onwards), that perceived value is gone.
You say you've made 8,000%, very well done if that's true. Presumably you've cashed out in order to have made that money (until you do that, you've made nothing yet), but it's important to understand that, for every £1 you put in and £8,000 you took out, someone else investing in crypto is £7,999 worse off (and that's ignoring the fees of running the thing).
So there will be winners (you) but there has to be losers, and there has to be more losers than winners. That's the only place your money when you cashed out can have come from.
And if you haven't cashed out, then the people who 'won' before you got their money from you and everyone else still in the scheme...
8000% of £1 is £80You say you've made 8,000%, very well done if that's true. Presumably you've cashed out in order to have made that money (until you do that, you've made nothing yet), but it's important to understand that, for every £1 you put in and £8,000 you took out, someone else investing in crypto is £7,999 worse off (and that's ignoring the fees of running the thing).
So there will be winners (you) but there has to be losers, and there has to be more losers than winners. That's the only place your money when you cashed out can have come from.
And if you haven't cashed out, then the people who 'won' before you got their money from you and everyone else still in the scheme...
The principle remains though, for someone to 'make' £79, someone else has to lose it, even ignoring operating costs.
How else is it possible for someone to make that return on their investment and the money not have come from someone else/or group of people?
Take a company. 10,000 people invest £1,000. The company takes that £10,000,000 investment, rents a factory, invests in staff and machinery, buys raw materials and creates £10,000 worth of product for every £100 of raw materials it uses. At the end of the year, after all costs disbursed, there's (lets say) a £1,000,000 profit. It decides to give half that profit to its shareholders that year (the people who originally invested) so that is £5,000,000 divided by 10,000 people is £500 dividend each.
You now have something of value (value in the business being assets, goodwill, a customer base etc) generating money (dividends).
Which is why those shares have a value. That value is based on what the company is worth, what dividends it is paying, what an investor thinks the future is likely to be like for that company (will there be more demand for widgets, is the company expanding, what is the management like) etc.
That share value might go up or down, the dividends might increase or decrease, but fundamentally each share holder owns a share of something real and of value that is generating a return on investment.
Compare that with Crypto, where there is nothing of value (beyond the hope that someone will pay you more because they think someone will pay them more - a ponzi scheme) and no mechanism to create any money.
This is fairly basic level investment knowledge but so many people just seem unable (or unwilling) to understand it.
WY86 said:
Ari said:
Good point, well made!
The principle remains though, for someone to 'make' £79, someone else has to lose it, even ignoring operating costs.
But thats the same with any transaction.. i feel we are going round in circles and talking to broadly about crypto as a space which has many different solutions within. The principle remains though, for someone to 'make' £79, someone else has to lose it, even ignoring operating costs.
Slow said:
I hope your all happy. This thread is absolutely garbage now.
Why? Because you wanted a crypto shilling thread?This is a discussion forum. We're discussing crypto. Just because the discussion doesn't entirely support the 'we're all going to magically get rich doing nothing' narrative doesn't make it garbage.
Quite the reverse in fact, you might learn something useful.
ERIKM400 said:
Slow said:
I hope your all happy. This thread is absolutely garbage now.
Couldn't agree more.Thanks to some of the advice on this thread I got into crypto a couple of years ago.
Bought some BTC at 7k €
Bought quite a lot of LINK for under 2€
Bought A LOT of ADA for under 0,1€
All of which I am still holding today with +/- 500% gains (and they say this is the bear market
)Guess who I think the losers are...
Maybe you'll sell and make a profit, in which case you gambled and won, well done I guess.
But until you do 'win', you've not actually made any actual money yet, you're just down whatever you put in.
Good luck!
Ari said:
Well, currently you. You've put, from the sound of it €10,000 of actual money into something that you hope will be worth more when you come to sell. But until you do, you're just circa €10,000 down. And all those who did make money from it got it from people like you.
Maybe you'll sell and make a profit, in which case you gambled and won, well done I guess.
But until you do 'win', you've not actually made any actual money yet, you're just down whatever you put in.
Good luck!
Again this is the exact same as selling shares, property or any other kind of asset…Maybe you'll sell and make a profit, in which case you gambled and won, well done I guess.
But until you do 'win', you've not actually made any actual money yet, you're just down whatever you put in.
Good luck!
Ari said:
Don't hate it, would love for there to be a real get rich quick scheme it which everyone got rich (although you'd need to ignore the fact that if everyone were ich, no one would be)!
Facts and opinions are different things.
Who said anything about getting rich quick… again thats your own perception of what you think crypto is Facts and opinions are different things.
Ari said:
By investing in something that generates wealth.
Take a company. 10,000 people invest £1,000. The company takes that £10,000,000 investment, rents a factory, invests in staff and machinery, buys raw materials and creates £10,000 worth of product for every £100 of raw materials it uses. At the end of the year, after all costs disbursed, there's (lets say) a £1,000,000 profit. It decides to give half that profit to its shareholders that year (the people who originally invested) so that is £5,000,000 divided by 10,000 people is £500 dividend each.
You now have something of value (value in the business being assets, goodwill, a customer base etc) generating money (dividends).
Which is why those shares have a value. That value is based on what the company is worth, what dividends it is paying, what an investor thinks the future is likely to be like for that company (will there be more demand for widgets, is the company expanding, what is the management like) etc.
That share value might go up or down, the dividends might increase or decrease, but fundamentally each share holder owns a share of something real and of value that is generating a return on investment.
Compare that with Crypto, where there is nothing of value (beyond the hope that someone will pay you more because they think someone will pay them more - a ponzi scheme) and no mechanism to create any money.
This is fairly basic level investment knowledge but so many people just seem unable (or unwilling) to understand it.
This maybe true in your fantasy Hallmark world, but back in the real world there are plenty of ways companies and hedge funds are able to manipulate share prices... which usually happens at retails expense. Take a company. 10,000 people invest £1,000. The company takes that £10,000,000 investment, rents a factory, invests in staff and machinery, buys raw materials and creates £10,000 worth of product for every £100 of raw materials it uses. At the end of the year, after all costs disbursed, there's (lets say) a £1,000,000 profit. It decides to give half that profit to its shareholders that year (the people who originally invested) so that is £5,000,000 divided by 10,000 people is £500 dividend each.
You now have something of value (value in the business being assets, goodwill, a customer base etc) generating money (dividends).
Which is why those shares have a value. That value is based on what the company is worth, what dividends it is paying, what an investor thinks the future is likely to be like for that company (will there be more demand for widgets, is the company expanding, what is the management like) etc.
That share value might go up or down, the dividends might increase or decrease, but fundamentally each share holder owns a share of something real and of value that is generating a return on investment.
Compare that with Crypto, where there is nothing of value (beyond the hope that someone will pay you more because they think someone will pay them more - a ponzi scheme) and no mechanism to create any money.
This is fairly basic level investment knowledge but so many people just seem unable (or unwilling) to understand it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHfJRON3b-w (tongue in cheek)
From what i have read the people talking about crypto haven't shilled any specific crypto but talking about the space, yet here you are just white washing and generalizing without any basic fundamental knowledge.
Crypto isn't going away so just get use to it.
Ari said:
ERIKM400 said:
Slow said:
I hope your all happy. This thread is absolutely garbage now.
Couldn't agree more.Thanks to some of the advice on this thread I got into crypto a couple of years ago.
Bought some BTC at 7k €
Bought quite a lot of LINK for under 2€
Bought A LOT of ADA for under 0,1€
All of which I am still holding today with +/- 500% gains (and they say this is the bear market
)Guess who I think the losers are...
Maybe you'll sell and make a profit, in which case you gambled and won, well done I guess.
But until you do 'win', you've not actually made any actual money yet, you're just down whatever you put in.
Good luck!
If you buy any shares / investment then you're down money until you liquidate it going by your logic.
WY86 said:
Ari said:
Don't hate it, would love for there to be a real get rich quick scheme it which everyone got rich (although you'd need to ignore the fact that if everyone were ich, no one would be)!
Facts and opinions are different things.
Who said anything about getting rich quick… again thats your own perception of what you think crypto is Facts and opinions are different things.
Ari said:
ERIKM400 said:
Slow said:
I hope your all happy. This thread is absolutely garbage now.
Couldn't agree more.Thanks to some of the advice on this thread I got into crypto a couple of years ago.
Bought some BTC at 7k €
Bought quite a lot of LINK for under 2€
Bought A LOT of ADA for under 0,1€
All of which I am still holding today with +/- 500% gains (and they say this is the bear market
)Guess who I think the losers are...
Maybe you'll sell and make a profit, in which case you gambled and won, well done I guess.
But until you do 'win', you've not actually made any actual money yet, you're just down whatever you put in.
Good luck!
I can sell today and will have made serious profits, but I trust there's more to come, so I will hold. That's why I invested in the first place. And once again, remember that at this moment everyone is panicking about the bear market.
If (and that's a big if) BTC and LINK and ADA all go to zero, yes I then I will lose my 10k€.
As long as BTC remains above 7k, LINK above 2€ and ADA above 0,1€ I will always remain in profit.
Your analogy doesn't make sense. It's like saying that you've already lost all the money that you have invested in shares from a company because it may someday go bust.
I just wish we could go back to serious discussions about crypto instead of this constant b
hing about crypto being a scam.The ideas and technology behind it it are fascinating and possibly world changing, just like the internet was so many years ago.
And the current monetary system is completely f..cked up so we definitely need some alternative.
Anyway, gonna leave you ladies to your handbags.
Might join the discussion again if someday we can get back on topic.
ERIKM400 said:
No I am not down 10k€ (let's suppose that's what I have invested).
I can sell today and will have made serious profits, but I trust there's more to come, so I will hold. That's why I invested in the first place. And once again, remember that at this moment everyone is panicking about the bear market.
If (and that's a big if) BTC and LINK and ADA all go to zero, yes I then I will lose my 10k€.
As long as BTC remains above 7k, LINK above 2€ and ADA above 0,1€ I will always remain in profit.
Your analogy doesn't make sense. It's like saying that you've already lost all the money that you have invested in shares from a company because it may someday go bust.
I just wish we could go back to serious discussions about crypto instead of this constant bhing about crypto being a scam.
The ideas and technology behind it it are fascinating and possibly world changing, just like the internet was so many years ago.
And the current monetary system is completely f..cked up so we definitely need some alternative.
Anyway, gonna leave you ladies to your handbags.
Might join the discussion again if someday we can get back on topic.
Come join the Telegram group if you have TG I can sell today and will have made serious profits, but I trust there's more to come, so I will hold. That's why I invested in the first place. And once again, remember that at this moment everyone is panicking about the bear market.
If (and that's a big if) BTC and LINK and ADA all go to zero, yes I then I will lose my 10k€.
As long as BTC remains above 7k, LINK above 2€ and ADA above 0,1€ I will always remain in profit.
Your analogy doesn't make sense. It's like saying that you've already lost all the money that you have invested in shares from a company because it may someday go bust.
I just wish we could go back to serious discussions about crypto instead of this constant b
hing about crypto being a scam.The ideas and technology behind it it are fascinating and possibly world changing, just like the internet was so many years ago.
And the current monetary system is completely f..cked up so we definitely need some alternative.
Anyway, gonna leave you ladies to your handbags.
Might join the discussion again if someday we can get back on topic.
https://t.me/PHCryptochat
Ari said:
Sterillium said:
I genuinely don't understand why this is just a thread of squabbling where people seem entirely unable to cope with the fact that, in general, people like different things and hold different opinions etc. Isn't it a bit odd that the crypto thread is basically filled with a few people who want to force everyone to hate crypto as much as they do?
If you don't like it or understand it, just don't invest in it. Surely?
I'm no expert whatsoever, but I got lucky and a three-figure investment I made with crypto a couple of years back turned into a five-figure reward. It's now parked on my drive, so definitely real.
Don't hate it, would love for there to be a real get rich quick scheme it which everyone got rich (although you'd need to ignore the fact that if everyone were ich, no one would be)! If you don't like it or understand it, just don't invest in it. Surely?
I'm no expert whatsoever, but I got lucky and a three-figure investment I made with crypto a couple of years back turned into a five-figure reward. It's now parked on my drive, so definitely real.
Facts and opinions are different things.
ERIKM400 said:
No I am not down 10k€ (let's suppose that's what I have invested).
I can sell today and will have made serious profits, but I trust there's more to come, so I will hold. That's why I invested in the first place. And once again, remember that at this moment everyone is panicking about the bear market.
If (and that's a big if) BTC and LINK and ADA all go to zero, yes I then I will lose my 10k€.
As long as BTC remains above 7k, LINK above 2€ and ADA above 0,1€ I will always remain in profit.
Your analogy doesn't make sense. It's like saying that you've already lost all the money that you have invested in shares from a company because it may someday go bust.
I just wish we could go back to serious discussions about crypto instead of this constant bhing about crypto being a scam.
The ideas and technology behind it it are fascinating and possibly world changing, just like the internet was so many years ago.
And the current monetary system is completely f..cked up so we definitely need some alternative.
Anyway, gonna leave you ladies to your handbags.
Might join the discussion again if someday we can get back on topic.
And there we have the nub of it. I can sell today and will have made serious profits, but I trust there's more to come, so I will hold. That's why I invested in the first place. And once again, remember that at this moment everyone is panicking about the bear market.
If (and that's a big if) BTC and LINK and ADA all go to zero, yes I then I will lose my 10k€.
As long as BTC remains above 7k, LINK above 2€ and ADA above 0,1€ I will always remain in profit.
Your analogy doesn't make sense. It's like saying that you've already lost all the money that you have invested in shares from a company because it may someday go bust.
I just wish we could go back to serious discussions about crypto instead of this constant b
hing about crypto being a scam.The ideas and technology behind it it are fascinating and possibly world changing, just like the internet was so many years ago.
And the current monetary system is completely f..cked up so we definitely need some alternative.
Anyway, gonna leave you ladies to your handbags.
Might join the discussion again if someday we can get back on topic.
When you own shares in a company, you own part of a real thing. From intellectual property rights to an order book to a customer base, buildings, plant, equipment, whatever. It exists. And it has the potential to make money, why else would anyone invest in it?
Which brings us back to crypto, why would anyone invest in it?
When you own crypto, you own nothing. No share of buildings, no plant and equipment, and crucially, no potential to make money. The ONLY thing crypto affords you is the hope that the next person will pay more than you did in the hope that the person after him will pay more again because the person after him will hope... Etc etc etc.
And if you believe that's a situation that can go on indefinitely then good luck to you. It's been tried before, many times.
Anyway, I'll bail out for now as people are getting upset and silly.
Ari said:
And there we have the nub of it.
When you own crypto, you own nothing. No share of buildings, no plant and equipment, and crucially, no potential to make money. The ONLY thing crypto affords you is the hope that the next person will pay more than you did in the hope that the person after him will pay more again because the person after him will hope... Etc etc etc.
And if you believe that's a situation that can go on indefinitely then good luck to you. It's been tried before, many times.
Anyway, I'll bail out for now as people are getting upset and silly.
And there's the nub of it - you are clearly clueless about it. When you own crypto, you own nothing. No share of buildings, no plant and equipment, and crucially, no potential to make money. The ONLY thing crypto affords you is the hope that the next person will pay more than you did in the hope that the person after him will pay more again because the person after him will hope... Etc etc etc.
And if you believe that's a situation that can go on indefinitely then good luck to you. It's been tried before, many times.
Anyway, I'll bail out for now as people are getting upset and silly.
It's a tradeable asset - which means even if you don't like it, it's a massive liquid market which people make (and lose) money on - the same as any other market. Please do everyone a favour and stop being the miserable old man in the corner of the pub grumbling until everyone leaves - this thread had some decent discussion but it's simply toxic with your lazy babble.
If you don't like it - don't put money it, simple.
Let the grown ups discuss the intricacies of the tech, price go up/price go down whatever they like. Simply being a miserable sod is adding nothing to the place old chap.
Gassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff