Crypto Currency Thread (Vol.2)

[Harris_I]

Blown2CV said:

surely there is no option to non-comply with sanctions, as sanctions are like one country taking their football away and going home. As in stopping supply of something or applying tariffs. Not something the target nation has control over?

What if you could bypass sanctions by not engaging with their currency or banking system? Here's an article by Alex Gladstein from 2021 on the use of bitcoin by Palestinians to bypass the economic asymmetry imposed on them by the Paris Protocol 1994 and the Oslo II Accord 1995. (This arrangement imposes the Shekel on the Palestinian territories, thus allowing the Bank of Israel to print and thereby export inflation to Palestine; in return Palestinian goods and services are exported to Israel at the cost of stagnant wages - the net outcome is a 14x of money supply since 1994 making it impossible for Palestinians to save. It's a similar dynamic to the the reallocation of wealth and resources from the global south to the global north through IMF programmes):

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/can-bitcoin-br...

[Condi]

Harris_I said:

What if you could bypass sanctions by not engaging with their currency or banking system?

Exactly what does happen. North Korea, Iran etc all have international trade despite being under US sanctions.

But, for example, take an export of oil from Iran to China....

If any business in that supply chain deals in US dollars at any point, then they can be tried in the US for not complying. That includes the ship owners, the insurers, the fuel suppliers for the ships, the repair and maintenance facilities, the suppliers of the oil drilling, processing and refining equipment at either end, even companies providing something as lowly as payroll software etc. The web of companies involved goes far far beyond the buyer and seller, or the country under sanctions. To make the deal happen you need to engage in companies which do no business with any company which uses the Dollar. Think about how many international companies do not deal with any American company or Dollar denominated transactions, especially when you get to companies the size of which are dealing with oil drilling or refining equipment - there aren't many companies in the world which do that specialised work, so trying to find one which would be happy to deal with Iran despite US sanctions is very difficult. Russia are experiencing the same with their O+G gear at the moment - it's all Western made and uses (usually) Siemens generators and turbines. Siemens can no longer ship spare parts or make repairs to the equipment, which over time will cause real problems for Russia' ability to maintain their output. In all likelihood they will get spares from a few shadow companies in China, but Siemens will have to be careful that they are undertaking due diligence as to who the end buyer is likely to be, they can't simply sell to a company in China if they suspect the parts will be sold on to Russia.

Its why China want to deal in Yuan where possible, rather than USD, because it makes them more powerful and erodes the ability of the US to enforce sanctions across the globe. Exactly why the US is never going to give that up easily and encourage any other form of currency than the Dollar.

Edited by Condi on Sunday 5th November 16:43

[dimots]

Condi said:

Exactly what does happen. North Korea, Iran etc all have international trade despite being under US sanctions.

But, for example, take an export of oil from Iran to China....

If any business in that supply chain deals in US dollars at any point, then they can be tried in the US for not complying. That includes the ship owners, the insurers, the fuel suppliers for the ships, the repair and maintenance facilities, the suppliers of the oil drilling, processing and refining equipment at either end, even companies providing something as lowly as payroll software etc. The web of companies involved goes far far beyond the buyer and seller, or the country under sanctions. To make the deal happen you need to engage in companies which do no business with any company which uses the Dollar. Think about how many international companies do not deal with any American company or Dollar denominated transactions, especially when you get to companies the size of which are dealing with oil drilling or refining equipment - there aren't many companies in the world which do that specialised work, so trying to find one which would be happy to deal with Iran despite US sanctions is very difficult. Russia are experiencing the same with their O+G gear at the moment - it's all Western made and uses (usually) Siemens generators and turbines. Siemens can no longer ship spare parts or make repairs to the equipment, which over time will cause real problems for Russia' ability to maintain their output. In all likelihood they will get spares from a few shadow companies in China, but Siemens will have to be careful that they are undertaking due diligence as to who the end buyer is likely to be, they can't simply sell to a company in China if they suspect the parts will be sold on to Russia.

Its why China want to deal in Yuan where possible, rather than USD, because it makes them more powerful and erodes the ability of the US to enforce sanctions across the globe. Exactly why the US is never going to give that up easily and encourage any other form of currency than the Dollar.

Edited by Condi on Sunday 5th November 16:43

Wtf are you wittering about?

[Condi]

dimots said:

Wtf are you wittering about?

I was replying to the post quoted, clearly above your level of comprehension.

It's an explanation of how the real world financial system works, and why the US is never going to give up on the Dollar in favour of Bitcoin or anything else they cannot control.

Edited by Condi on Sunday 5th November 20:17

[McMoose]

dimots said:

WTF are you on about? FTX scammed greedy corpo investors who wanted in on the crypto boom without having a clue about what they were investing in. It has dick all to do with crypto really.

You literally have no idea what you are talking about even after having years and years to educate yourself. You long for bitcoin to fail, but you don't understand that it's here for ever and it's getting stronger every day. Bitcoin is a NEW TYPE OF MONEY and it is decentralised and lies outside of government control. Comparing it to regulated government currencies is pointless, because it's not one.

"Bitcoin is a NEW TYPE OF MONEY and it is decentralised and lies outside of government control"

In your opinion is this a good thing? If so why? Specifically the outside of government control aspect.

Edited by McMoose on Monday 6th November 07:27

[dimots]

McMoose said:

"Bitcoin is a NEW TYPE OF MONEY and it is decentralised and lies outside of government control"

In your opinion is this a good thing? If so why? Specifically the outside of government control aspect.

Edited by McMoose on Monday 6th November 07:27

Yes it’s a very good thing. I could turn that question around. Why would you want your money to be subject to government control? Think about it for a second or two before realising that the only reason you might want that is because your money isn’t worth anything without it.

Hence bitcoin.

[RichTT]

Condi said:

No, as explained above, the legitimacy of the Pound is because the BoE will lend (and accept repayments) in the currency, and it is the only way you can pay taxes to the government.

The "I promise to pay the bearer on demand" is more taken to mean that it will be accepted/redeemed at the BoE for it's face value.

Anyway, SBF, guilty of a multi-billion dollar fraud. And that was supposed to be the "legitimate" and "professional" face of crypto exchanges. Imagine what the others are up to!

The legitimacy of the pound is only that it is BoE/Government-mandated currency, ie fiat, ie by decree. How does it ensure that you are forced to use it? By demanding taxes are paid with it on fear of imprisonment. Fiat monies are backed by state-level violence, from top to bottom. The state doesn't need to do this, it can create as much paper currency as it wants without forcing taxation. But it does this because it can benefit from seigniorage. This is the subtle inflation tax over time that robs our currencies of their value.

We're 5 decades into an experiment that is a global economy running on money with no resource cost, or restraint. After 5000 years of hard money, 5 decades of fiat is an aberration.

What exactly are you redeeming your pound for at the BoE relative to its face value? Nothing, you're forced to do so under threat of violence.

[RichTT]

McMoose said:

"Bitcoin is a NEW TYPE OF MONEY and it is decentralised and lies outside of government control"

In your opinion is this a good thing? If so why? Specifically the outside of government control aspect.

Edited by McMoose on Monday 6th November 07:27

If history teaches us anything it's that given the opportunity human beings will be self-serving, greedy and manipulative. Especially when it comes to the creation of money to serve those needs. As we have seen, the temptation to create wealth from nowhere, to fund wars, special interests agendas, and generally benefit the few at the cost of the many, have done so.

As has been said, "It is no coincidence that the century of total war coincided with the century of central banking." - Ron Paul

Fiat money feeds the war machine because we have made wars profitable, and in order to feed the war machine they need to print money. They can only do this if the supply of money is under their control.

https://mises.org/library/how-central-banks-fund-o...

[nismocat]

I see the same arguments are playing out in this thread.

Anyhoo, I bought $200 BTC about two years ago for "a laugh" that I found on my Electrum wallet (and I found the passwords) plus another $1000 about two weeks ago. Apart from being dumb and using Binance (I already had an account setup years ago) my "investment" is doing good this morning!

On another note, I found a UTC file on my external hard drive (that was in my busted 2007 Mac) and it says "2018...blob:https://www.myetherwallet.com/.." and a load of numbers. Any ideas what it is?

[James6112]

My Bitcoin tracker (In before the ban, BIT-XBTE) is 258% up
In the same period my other investments are 18% up
Ok BIT-XBTE has fluctuated between 0% & 500%!
Will keep it another 10 years
“ Don't worry, Rodney. This time next year, we'll be millionaires”

[simons123]

Whilst most of you suckers bore the life out of everybody talking regulations, how BTC is a scam, etc zzzzzz........I've just made 5 figures from just 1k over the last few weeks on Myria and Games for a Living altcoins. Crypto has been popping right now....gaming coins is where its at.

I expect a cool down down so I've taken profits....going to wait it out until next year now. BTC halving in April so historically the bull market begins after then however historically we normally dump leading up to it. So I'll be buying early Q1 again when I expect market to dump properly. Gaming crypto and launchpads are where I'm going.

[dimots]

Shawn Dolifka's lawsuit against Tether/Bitfinex dismissed.

https://dailyhodl.com/2023/08/06/us-court-dismisse...

Quite interesting looking at Tether's latest reserves statement. Massive reserves now, 76.44% in treasury bills. I wouldn't want to hold that much worthless FIAT but I suppose needs must.

They've been doing some very good business!

https://tether.to/en/transparency/#usdt

[ILikeCake]

simons123 said:

Whilst most of you suckers bore the life out of everybody talking regulations, how BTC is a scam, etc zzzzzz........I've just made 5 figures from just 1k over the last few weeks on Myria and Games for a Living altcoins. Crypto has been popping right now....gaming coins is where its at.

Oh this is just wonderful news! Well done dear.

[Chuffedmonkey]

I bought a % of Bitcoin (not a full coin) when it was £16K a coin, I held for a long time and I sold it all a week ago when it was at a high £30k a coin. It now sits in my FIAT wallet. If Bitcoin drops again ill buy back in, if it don't drop again Ill pull my money out. I treat it as a risk rather then an investment.

[McMoose]

dimots said:

Yes it’s a very good thing. I could turn that question around. Why would you want your money to be subject to government control? Think about it for a second or two before realising that the only reason you might want that is because your money isn’t worth anything without it.

Hence bitcoin.

The value of my money is nothing to do with government control. It's value is based on the perception of it's ability to pay for goods and services, and more importantly the value being held by the majority of the population and the Bank of England. FWIW said value is a darn site more stable than if it were held in Bitcoin.

If money was not subject to government control, and transactions not open to government investigation where necessary my concern is the honest payment of taxes where due to enable funding for our services.

We all know that tax evasion is rife with cash in hand work. If the more people moved to bitcoin as a method of payment how can you ensure that the government are able to check for tax evasion?

Edited by McMoose on Sunday 19th November 09:18

[RichTT]

McMoose said:

The value of my money is nothing to do with government control. It's value is based on the perception of it's ability to pay for goods and services, and more importantly the value being held by the majority of the population and the Bank of England. FWIW said value is a darn site more stable than if it were held in Bitcoin.

If money was not subject to government control, and transactions not open to government investigation where necessary my concern is the honest payment of taxes where due to enable funding for our services.

We all know that tax evasion is rife with cash in hand work. If the more people moved to bitcoin as a method of payment how can you ensure that the government are able to check for tax evasion?

If the units of currency in circulation increase at a rate that surpasses the general growth of the economy, you get inflation of asset and goods prices. This is inflation, this is not controversial in any way to anyone on either the Keynesian or the Austrian side of economic theory. So yes, if the Government decides that it needs to spend more money than it earns in taxes, and the public (through Bond buying) isn't willing to fund it, and in resorting to the BoE creates money from nowhere, you will have a corresponding decrease in the purchasing power of your money. This is alongside demand shocks / supply shocks and government created scarcity or price increases through policy.

The UK / BoE did this to fund WWI when 60% of the War Bonds went unsold to the UK public, the BoE stepped up with some creative accounting and thus QE was born. This was repeated in WWII & Keynes himself congratulated the UK Gov for such an inventive process, but he warned in a 1946 letter to the Bank of England's Governor:

"I am not convinced that the recent increase in deposits is anything more than a temporary phenomenon, and I am afraid that if the Bank continues to pursue a policy of cheap money, it may create an asset boom which will subsequently lead to a slump."

Which was prescient even then.

Taxes should be voluntary, not coerced using their monopoly on violence. It is that act that is dishonest, not the evasion of taxes. Given that all governments have a history of inability to use taxpayer money responsibly. We can also argue that governments often mismanage funds, engage in wasteful spending, and prioritize projects that do not benefit all citizens equally. I believe that individuals are better equipped to make decisions about how to spend their own money, ensuring that it is used for purposes they value and support. This is however, a minority view in line with Libertarianism.

See above answer. Taxation is essentially theft and the government should run on a gofundme website.

If they want taxation then they too have to have transparency. If I want to run a car, I'll pay road tax, as long as I can see that money goes to paying for roads. I want healthcare I'll pay a healthcare tax as long as I have transparency into the spending. They want a war, well, they can FRO they're not getting a penny. Transparency and honesty works both ways. Our system is entirely dishonest and opaque.

Edited by RichTT on Sunday 19th November 09:48

[jameswills]

McMoose said:

The value of my money is nothing to do with government control. It's value is based on the perception of it's ability to pay for goods and services, and more importantly the value being held by the majority of the population and the Bank of England. FWIW said value is a darn site more stable than if it were held in Bitcoin.

If money was not subject to government control, and transactions not open to government investigation where necessary my concern is the honest payment of taxes where due to enable funding for our services.

We all know that tax evasion is rife with cash in hand work. If the more people moved to bitcoin as a method of payment how can you ensure that the government are able to check for tax evasion?

Edited by McMoose on Sunday 19th November 09:18

Why do we have to surrender our monetary power to the government? Surely that’s a really bad idea?

[McMoose]

RichTT said:

See above answer. Taxation is essentially theft and the government should run on a gofundme website.

If they want taxation then they too have to have transparency. If I want to run a car, I'll pay road tax, as long as I can see that money goes to paying for roads. I want healthcare I'll pay a healthcare tax as long as I have transparency into the spending. They want a war, well, they can FRO they're not getting a penny. Transparency and honesty works both ways. Our system is entirely dishonest and opaque.

Edited by RichTT on Sunday 19th November 09:48

You have not answered the question. You might be willing to voluntarily pay tax with the guarantee of greater transparency on where it is spent. But how do you ensure that others will do the same if the government do not have the ability to investigate the movement of [crypto] 'money' between people and businesses?

[RichTT]

McMoose said:

You have not answered the question. You might be willing to voluntarily pay tax with the guarantee of greater transparency on where it is spent. But how do you ensure that others will do the same if the government do not have the ability to investigate the movement of [crypto] 'money' between people and businesses?

The government should have no right to surveille our spending habits at all. It didn't when money was gold, it didn't when money was gold backed notes, it didn't before the advent of modern banking.

What other people do with their money is no concern of mine, just as mine should be of no concern to them. Where do you limit it? The postie not declaring the tenner I gave him at Christmas? The builder who did a weekend job for a few hundred quid and I paid in cash? I guarantee you that both of them will be spending that money and neither the government nor the banking sector will be able to take a cut at each transaction. Leaching value from something they worked hard to earn.

The only reason they feel the need to do this is because they need their cut. Because they've got greedier and greedier as spending gets higher.

Modern banking has been weaponised against private citizens and nation states. If you need permission to spend the money that you've already earned, you're in an abusive relationship. If you need permission to spend money, it's not money, it's a social credit note.

The money in your bank isn't yours, it isn't there, and it isn't even money.

"I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money."
Thomas Sowell

Edited by RichTT on Sunday 19th November 19:08

[dimots]

Personally I feel like bitcoin (or at least triple entry accounting) has the potential to massively improve the transparency of tax take and allocation. It’s a built in feature!

Having said that, governments don’t tax money they tax people. You can take lots of actions to increase personal responsibility and accountability - I wouldn’t mind seeing a system like that in Sweden where income tax is a matter of public record.