MBNA / American express - can they do this ?
Discussion
Thanks for everyone's replies.
No, I'm not going to withhold payment for the £115, I don't think that is the right thing to do. I don't want to end up with some marker on a website somewhere that takes months of letter writing to remove. If MBNA need the £115 to survive then at this point I will pay it to them. Whether they end up keeping it, who knows?
So others don't suffer the same plight we have I have had a small website built in response to my problems with MBNA and the Virgin flying club and will be having some SEO work done to promote it. Not the most exciting of websites but hopefully it does the job. It probably comes across as being a bit childish to go to the trouble of having the website built but I'm genuinely keen for others to avoid our mistakes. When the MBNA sales team mentioned a cooling off period in the sales pitch it really put my wife off guard and I know others will be tricked in the same way. I'm happy that I gave fair warning to MBNA's Diarmuid Morgan that this was going to happen so they only have themselves to blame. I was surprised he stuck to his guns at that point but each to their own.
In the past I've found little websites like that useful when researching a subject. I'm happy I've approached things from a level headed perspective and tried to be fair and unemotional. I welcome any comments you may have as to it's content.
In response to Jon (bigandclever): The fact we weren't told the card was going to be an American Express card was more of a surprise than anything. As you quite rightly say we knew it was an American Express card once it arrived because it says so quite clearly on the bit of plastic. What we weren't aware of were the implications of this. The promised "cooling off period" was the whole reason my wife agreed to the card. My issue is the fact that hidden somewhere in the terms and conditions I can no longer access was the fact that as soon as you used the card the cooling off period finished. We only found out that so many people refuse to take American Express when we went to use it. So we were in a chicken and egg situation which seems unfair. Had we just changed our minds and decided that actually we didn't want it any more then so be it. But we didn't, we had to cancel it because it wasn't going to do the job we needed it to, ie put all our credit card spending through it to maximise air miles rewards.
I have decided to take the advice give on here and lodge a formal complaint with the FSA / Financial Ombudsman service. It seems the best way to make MBNA face up to their questionable selling techniques.
I think with the Virgin Flying club it's more of a disappointment than anything else. We've always enjoyed flying Upper Class with them. As with all services there have been a few little niggles but we have always seen them as a fun way to travel. The Heathrow lounge is cool, the in flight service good fun and so we had always felt the love. I think that love has gone now and it's a shame, they just picked the wrong company to partner them, a company who don't share their customer focus. either way the result is it was a Virgin Flying club credit card which has caused all the problems and so that will be the bit which sticks in our minds.
I'll see how we get on with the FSA. Incidentally am I right in thinking the Financial Ombudsman Service is part of the FSA ?
Keep smiling
Henry
No, I'm not going to withhold payment for the £115, I don't think that is the right thing to do. I don't want to end up with some marker on a website somewhere that takes months of letter writing to remove. If MBNA need the £115 to survive then at this point I will pay it to them. Whether they end up keeping it, who knows?
So others don't suffer the same plight we have I have had a small website built in response to my problems with MBNA and the Virgin flying club and will be having some SEO work done to promote it. Not the most exciting of websites but hopefully it does the job. It probably comes across as being a bit childish to go to the trouble of having the website built but I'm genuinely keen for others to avoid our mistakes. When the MBNA sales team mentioned a cooling off period in the sales pitch it really put my wife off guard and I know others will be tricked in the same way. I'm happy that I gave fair warning to MBNA's Diarmuid Morgan that this was going to happen so they only have themselves to blame. I was surprised he stuck to his guns at that point but each to their own.
In the past I've found little websites like that useful when researching a subject. I'm happy I've approached things from a level headed perspective and tried to be fair and unemotional. I welcome any comments you may have as to it's content.
In response to Jon (bigandclever): The fact we weren't told the card was going to be an American Express card was more of a surprise than anything. As you quite rightly say we knew it was an American Express card once it arrived because it says so quite clearly on the bit of plastic. What we weren't aware of were the implications of this. The promised "cooling off period" was the whole reason my wife agreed to the card. My issue is the fact that hidden somewhere in the terms and conditions I can no longer access was the fact that as soon as you used the card the cooling off period finished. We only found out that so many people refuse to take American Express when we went to use it. So we were in a chicken and egg situation which seems unfair. Had we just changed our minds and decided that actually we didn't want it any more then so be it. But we didn't, we had to cancel it because it wasn't going to do the job we needed it to, ie put all our credit card spending through it to maximise air miles rewards.
I have decided to take the advice give on here and lodge a formal complaint with the FSA / Financial Ombudsman service. It seems the best way to make MBNA face up to their questionable selling techniques.
I think with the Virgin Flying club it's more of a disappointment than anything else. We've always enjoyed flying Upper Class with them. As with all services there have been a few little niggles but we have always seen them as a fun way to travel. The Heathrow lounge is cool, the in flight service good fun and so we had always felt the love. I think that love has gone now and it's a shame, they just picked the wrong company to partner them, a company who don't share their customer focus. either way the result is it was a Virgin Flying club credit card which has caused all the problems and so that will be the bit which sticks in our minds.
I'll see how we get on with the FSA. Incidentally am I right in thinking the Financial Ombudsman Service is part of the FSA ?
Keep smiling
Henry
It's not a 'childish' thing to complain, but I (for one, anyway!) maintain you're in the wrong.
Anyway, maybe this will help, maybe it won't!. With the black card, if you spend £7.5k in a year, you get a free companion flight that year. So, you'd get a BOGOF on your regular first class flight (has to be J class). And let's say you do spend £7.5k... that gives you the 6000 miles (for joining) plus 15000 miles (for spending). You 'only' need 29000 miles in total for a return to New York.
I know it seems I'm banging the VA/Amex drum, but all my grocery shopping, fuel, insurance, white goods, my train season ticket, etc. can be paid for on Amex. It does fall over, however, if I want to use it at smaller retailers.
Anyway, maybe this will help, maybe it won't!. With the black card, if you spend £7.5k in a year, you get a free companion flight that year. So, you'd get a BOGOF on your regular first class flight (has to be J class). And let's say you do spend £7.5k... that gives you the 6000 miles (for joining) plus 15000 miles (for spending). You 'only' need 29000 miles in total for a return to New York.
I know it seems I'm banging the VA/Amex drum, but all my grocery shopping, fuel, insurance, white goods, my train season ticket, etc. can be paid for on Amex. It does fall over, however, if I want to use it at smaller retailers.
bigandclever said:
It's not a 'childish' thing to complain, but I (for one, anyway!) maintain you're in the wrong.
Anyway, maybe this will help, maybe it won't!. With the black card, if you spend £7.5k in a year, you get a free companion flight that year. So, you'd get a BOGOF on your regular first class flight (has to be J class). And let's say you do spend £7.5k... that gives you the 6000 miles (for joining) plus 15000 miles (for spending). You 'only' need 29000 miles in total for a return to New York.
I know it seems I'm banging the VA/Amex drum, but all my grocery shopping, fuel, insurance, white goods, my train season ticket, etc. can be paid for on Amex. It does fall over, however, if I want to use it at smaller retailers.
They should employ you to speak to unhappy customers Jon!Anyway, maybe this will help, maybe it won't!. With the black card, if you spend £7.5k in a year, you get a free companion flight that year. So, you'd get a BOGOF on your regular first class flight (has to be J class). And let's say you do spend £7.5k... that gives you the 6000 miles (for joining) plus 15000 miles (for spending). You 'only' need 29000 miles in total for a return to New York.
I know it seems I'm banging the VA/Amex drum, but all my grocery shopping, fuel, insurance, white goods, my train season ticket, etc. can be paid for on Amex. It does fall over, however, if I want to use it at smaller retailers.
It surprised me that you said there was no need to go through the Virgin site to get the bonus points when shopping at Ocado. I'm not disagreeing with you but if that is the case then why would the telesales guy tell my wife to shop via the Virgin site? I wasn't aware that you only needed to spend £7,500 to get a free companion flight. The virgin website says it's 60,000 points. By a J class flight I presume you mean a flight off the Virgin site, all bit it at a discount from "list". Around £1,000 for a return to NY, £1,800 to Miami.
My Virgin flying club website says I need 90,000 points to get to NY. 100,000 for Miami.
My issue is that all these figures are achievable but only if I can put all our spending through the card and that isn't going to happen based on our brief experience. There is no point in paying the money to MBNA and trying to use the card if we're going to fall short. It will have been a waste of time. Of course MBNA / American Express still get their cut from the retailer commission.
Sorry if I come across as being a snob for not flying Economy class with my points calculations but we work bloody hard and don't take that many flights. They are for holidays so a decent flight starts things off on the right foot and rounds things off nicely.
I still think we have played the game and been decent about the whole thing. We took the tele sales guy at his word, and seem to have been bolted up a bit on this one. Had I known then what I know now we would have thanked the bloke onto phone and called it a day.
I think you need to make a decision after some research on the Internet not after some spiel from a bloke on the phone even if he is supposed to be governed by a strict set of rules and guidelines. We live and learn!
Henry
Henry-F said:
They should employ you to speak to unhappy customers Jon!
I don't know if that's a compliment or not So... you're correct that the VA site will tell you you need 65k miles to get a companion flight. But, one of the perks of the Amex black card is "Enjoy a complimentary companion reward flight when you spend £7,500 on your card in a year"... http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/en/gb/creditcard/qu...
You're also correct that a 'free' Upper Class return to NY is 90k miles - my 29k miles example was for Economy.
The only reason (though it is a good one, I think) to do *some* shopping through the VA site is that *some* partners increase the number of miles you get per pound. For instance, Agent Provocateur, you saucy devil, will give you 9miles per pound. Anyway, I find the list of available retailers quite good, for my needs... http://shop.virgin-atlantic.com/ As I said, the card still gets me 2miles per pound everywhere else that accepts Amex.
I have no particular reason to bang the VA/Amex drum, apart from being a satisfied customer, but I think you've somehow missed some of the advantages and focussed on the negatives - maybe a quick reflection would be useful? And then throw it in the bin
Henry-F said:
I have decided to take the advice give on here and lodge a formal complaint with the FSA / Financial Ombudsman service. It seems the best way to make MBNA face up to their questionable selling techniques.
I'll see how we get on with the FSA. Incidentally am I right in thinking the Financial Ombudsman Service is part of the FSA ?
Keep smiling
Henry
Surely Henry you should write to the card provider before escalating to the Ombudsman - you haven't even tried to resolve the situation past a quick call to someone in the call centre???I'll see how we get on with the FSA. Incidentally am I right in thinking the Financial Ombudsman Service is part of the FSA ?
Keep smiling
Henry
Like you ask everyone to give a dealer a chance to rectify the situation before they come and moan on the internet, you likewise should write a complaint to head office and go from there - it probbably would have taken less time to do that than setting up websites!
Edited by steve singh on Thursday 24th March 13:15
Another Black card holder here.
I'll agree with you that too many places don't except Amex because of the charges - but these are almost always smaller outlets (B&Q excepted).
It does all depend on your spending profile of course, but generally most of us shop in supermarkets and they all take it, as do all garages, most hotels chains, most large high street retailers and all the big internet sellers - Amazon etc.
If your expenditure could meet the targets set ie £7500 as already mentioned, then it is definitely worth it - we're saving £2000 on a holiday to Florida for 5 people this year in Economy Plus which more than makes up for the £115.
Rather surprised at this mans attitude to you - I find his stance very uncompromising - in his position I would have offered a refund minus an administrative fee - i.e. £30 or so. In our dealings with them they've been unusually fair - they forgot to charge us the second year and wrote to us to say we shouldn't worry as it was their error and no charge would be taken. We hadn't even noticed.
I do think the cancellation of the cooling off period, after a single purchase, is a little dubious. Your point that the card was deemed to be unsatisfactory due to the limited opportunities you have found to use it, would more than adequately meet the requirements to cancel within the cooling off period. After all - you don't know if a credit card will meet all your needs unless you have used it for a month as this is the general spending cycle that most households rotate through.
As an aside - I always carry two credit cards with me in case one isn't taken - or the machine doesn't accept it. The two cards are always a different type.
I'll agree with you that too many places don't except Amex because of the charges - but these are almost always smaller outlets (B&Q excepted).
It does all depend on your spending profile of course, but generally most of us shop in supermarkets and they all take it, as do all garages, most hotels chains, most large high street retailers and all the big internet sellers - Amazon etc.
If your expenditure could meet the targets set ie £7500 as already mentioned, then it is definitely worth it - we're saving £2000 on a holiday to Florida for 5 people this year in Economy Plus which more than makes up for the £115.
Rather surprised at this mans attitude to you - I find his stance very uncompromising - in his position I would have offered a refund minus an administrative fee - i.e. £30 or so. In our dealings with them they've been unusually fair - they forgot to charge us the second year and wrote to us to say we shouldn't worry as it was their error and no charge would be taken. We hadn't even noticed.
I do think the cancellation of the cooling off period, after a single purchase, is a little dubious. Your point that the card was deemed to be unsatisfactory due to the limited opportunities you have found to use it, would more than adequately meet the requirements to cancel within the cooling off period. After all - you don't know if a credit card will meet all your needs unless you have used it for a month as this is the general spending cycle that most households rotate through.
As an aside - I always carry two credit cards with me in case one isn't taken - or the machine doesn't accept it. The two cards are always a different type.
My comment was intended as a compliment
Right then, I've been on the Virgin site and you are indeed correct A.P. are offering 9 miles per £ of fun. But why do some companies show 1 mile per £? Surely you get that anyway or is that in additional 1 mile per point to the 2 miles per point you would enjoy anyway with the black card?
Does the companion voucher come as soon as you hit the £7,500 spend target? I assume the companion voucher you "buy" allows 2 people to fly for an air miles ticket plus a companion voucher rather than having to buy 2 air miles tickets.
The predicament I'm in is that I know our spend is high enough to get decent rewards providing the card is accepted. The next hurdle of course is actually being able to get hold of flights but I'll have to meet that one when it happens and I'm sure that issue is common to all the rewards schemes. I did wonder if it was easier to book economy flights and upgrade them to Upper rather than go all out to get Upper Class flights.
Based on your post I'm going to persevere with the card. Ultimately we've nothing to lose for the next year if they won't refund the £115. I've got one place where we spend around £25k a year which will take the Amex card so that gets us halfway there.
I still think MBNA needs to review their sales / notification of terms and conditions. That comment of "you've got nothing to lose because you get a cooling off period" is very misleading.
The Virgin Flying Club may well owe you a drink. Let's see how it goes. Thank you very much for taking the time to post.
Henry
Right then, I've been on the Virgin site and you are indeed correct A.P. are offering 9 miles per £ of fun. But why do some companies show 1 mile per £? Surely you get that anyway or is that in additional 1 mile per point to the 2 miles per point you would enjoy anyway with the black card?
Does the companion voucher come as soon as you hit the £7,500 spend target? I assume the companion voucher you "buy" allows 2 people to fly for an air miles ticket plus a companion voucher rather than having to buy 2 air miles tickets.
The predicament I'm in is that I know our spend is high enough to get decent rewards providing the card is accepted. The next hurdle of course is actually being able to get hold of flights but I'll have to meet that one when it happens and I'm sure that issue is common to all the rewards schemes. I did wonder if it was easier to book economy flights and upgrade them to Upper rather than go all out to get Upper Class flights.
Based on your post I'm going to persevere with the card. Ultimately we've nothing to lose for the next year if they won't refund the £115. I've got one place where we spend around £25k a year which will take the Amex card so that gets us halfway there.
I still think MBNA needs to review their sales / notification of terms and conditions. That comment of "you've got nothing to lose because you get a cooling off period" is very misleading.
The Virgin Flying Club may well owe you a drink. Let's see how it goes. Thank you very much for taking the time to post.
Henry
dodgyviper said:
I'll agree with you that too many places don't except Amex because of the charges - but these are almost always smaller outlets (B&Q excepted).
Now I am confused. I could have sworn that B&Q were listed as one of the people on the Virgin shopping cookie site. Something like 3 points per pound from memory !!Henry
There are a couple of issues here and its important to seperate the law from what might be bad business practice and even further still customer fault.
Firstly with regards to telling you whether or not it was an American Express card. I believe an American Express card is not classed as a credit card as you have to pay it off at the end of the month. Can you confirm if this is the case with your card or have AMEX moved over to proper credit cards now?
Therefore if the term 'credit' card was used by the salesman I think it is reasonable that most people would assume it was a VISA or Mastercard. Misleading selling is controlled by the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. To simplyfy it to the extreme the failure to tell you it was AMEX could be considered a misleading omission if it was material information you needed to make an informed decision and it affected your transactional decision.
Material information - well quite clearly this would be the fact it was AMEX
Transactional decision - this has a wide definition and is basically your decision to do something or not to do something. In this case, clearly if you thought you were getting a VISA/Mastercard you have allowed them to run a credit check on you and put a mark on your credit files to say you have credit. You also allowed them to transfer your air miles to this card.
Clearly MBNA will know that AMEX will be less popular than VISA and Mastercard and if they have a business practice of witholding information in order to hook customers in then they may be in breach of this criminal law. The fact that the customer has the option to cancel is irrelevant, because as I have said, taking the card out already has consequences.
Taking another quick example, if a business is selling clocked cars, they could also be in breach of this legislation. Customers will want to know a car has been clocked and it WILL affect their transaction decision (i.e how much they might pay) therefore the business is under a duty to tell them and if they don't they may be comitting an offence. The law puts a duty of the business to tell customers things that may be negative.
Having said all that, these examples are really minor examples and chances are no regulatory authority would bother taking up a complaint unless a lot of people complained.
The fact that its easy to search for something on the net and see its an AMEX is irrelevant because at the moment you sign up you are on the phone and reliant on the caller. This is why we have cancelation rights.
Credit cards are regulated under the Consumer Credit Act and they have to send you the terms of the card so the T and Cs should be available to you. If its an AMEX they probably dont have anywhere near as many onerous requirements as it won;t be a credit card.
Moving onto the loss of fee for useing the card. Its hard to comment without seeing all the information you had to hand. I think its reasonable that you lose the fee if you use the card as long as it is made clear to you. Therefore this bit could come down to them being sly or you not reading things properly.
Firstly with regards to telling you whether or not it was an American Express card. I believe an American Express card is not classed as a credit card as you have to pay it off at the end of the month. Can you confirm if this is the case with your card or have AMEX moved over to proper credit cards now?
Therefore if the term 'credit' card was used by the salesman I think it is reasonable that most people would assume it was a VISA or Mastercard. Misleading selling is controlled by the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. To simplyfy it to the extreme the failure to tell you it was AMEX could be considered a misleading omission if it was material information you needed to make an informed decision and it affected your transactional decision.
Material information - well quite clearly this would be the fact it was AMEX
Transactional decision - this has a wide definition and is basically your decision to do something or not to do something. In this case, clearly if you thought you were getting a VISA/Mastercard you have allowed them to run a credit check on you and put a mark on your credit files to say you have credit. You also allowed them to transfer your air miles to this card.
Clearly MBNA will know that AMEX will be less popular than VISA and Mastercard and if they have a business practice of witholding information in order to hook customers in then they may be in breach of this criminal law. The fact that the customer has the option to cancel is irrelevant, because as I have said, taking the card out already has consequences.
Taking another quick example, if a business is selling clocked cars, they could also be in breach of this legislation. Customers will want to know a car has been clocked and it WILL affect their transaction decision (i.e how much they might pay) therefore the business is under a duty to tell them and if they don't they may be comitting an offence. The law puts a duty of the business to tell customers things that may be negative.
Having said all that, these examples are really minor examples and chances are no regulatory authority would bother taking up a complaint unless a lot of people complained.
As you know financial products sold at a distance have a 7 or 14 days cancellation period. But as you have indicated you lose this if you use it. I think its partly your fault for not cancelling the card then and there or making further enquiries if you were unsure of AMEX.
The fact that its easy to search for something on the net and see its an AMEX is irrelevant because at the moment you sign up you are on the phone and reliant on the caller. This is why we have cancelation rights.
Credit cards are regulated under the Consumer Credit Act and they have to send you the terms of the card so the T and Cs should be available to you. If its an AMEX they probably dont have anywhere near as many onerous requirements as it won;t be a credit card.
Moving onto the loss of fee for useing the card. Its hard to comment without seeing all the information you had to hand. I think its reasonable that you lose the fee if you use the card as long as it is made clear to you. Therefore this bit could come down to them being sly or you not reading things properly.
Best thing to do is just to go back to MBNA stating that you believe they have breached the TCF guidelines of the FSA and that if they don't refund the fee to you, you will have no option but to refer the matter to the FSA. I honestly think that will be sufficient and I would def go back to them first rather than the FOS or FSA directly. Financial service companies hate the involvment of the regulator and whilst they may initially try it on with you in my experience they back down quickly if they know they are in the wrong and you demonstrate you have the knowledge on what grounds they are wrong. In this case the TCF principle is all that you need to mention.
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