Highways Agency Report vs Title Plan
Discussion
Hi all. I am 95% through the process of moving home, reviewing contracts ready to sign and exchange.
While I don't post much I do regularly read sound advice from this forum. Therefore has anyone got any thoughts/experience or advice on the following?
Upon going over the contract I have come across something which I find a little alarming. There is a very clear discrepancy between the Title Plan (box in red) and the search returned from the Highways Agency (Land Shown in Orange)
This is the solicitors response to my query on the discrepancy.
"We have spoken with Highways. They could only confirm that this is not an error and that the land in the orange triangle is highways land. I have looked at pictures of the property on the internet and on google earth and I can see at the front of the property there is a post box and a telegraph pole. This could be a reason for the land being classed as highways.
Highways were not able to tell us any further information without us writing to them and them making further investigations. They couldn't say how long their investigations would take. I don't know if you are on speaking terms with the sellers to see if this has ever been an issue for them or if you want me to raise any further queries through their solicitors."
House frontage below.
I am at a bit of a loss as to where to go with this from here. The house has a reasonably sized driveway, with a hedge on the boundary of the red line on the title plan. Highways believe this is their land and thus in effect, the highway goes right up to the lounge window/front door!
Any comments much appreciated.
Cheers
Charlie
While I don't post much I do regularly read sound advice from this forum. Therefore has anyone got any thoughts/experience or advice on the following?
Upon going over the contract I have come across something which I find a little alarming. There is a very clear discrepancy between the Title Plan (box in red) and the search returned from the Highways Agency (Land Shown in Orange)
This is the solicitors response to my query on the discrepancy.
"We have spoken with Highways. They could only confirm that this is not an error and that the land in the orange triangle is highways land. I have looked at pictures of the property on the internet and on google earth and I can see at the front of the property there is a post box and a telegraph pole. This could be a reason for the land being classed as highways.
Highways were not able to tell us any further information without us writing to them and them making further investigations. They couldn't say how long their investigations would take. I don't know if you are on speaking terms with the sellers to see if this has ever been an issue for them or if you want me to raise any further queries through their solicitors."
House frontage below.
I am at a bit of a loss as to where to go with this from here. The house has a reasonably sized driveway, with a hedge on the boundary of the red line on the title plan. Highways believe this is their land and thus in effect, the highway goes right up to the lounge window/front door!
Any comments much appreciated.
Cheers
Charlie
I once carried out three highways searches with a particular local authority and each time they came back differently. The third showed what I wanted, but it was really difficult to get a proper confirmation.
The triangle which runs right to the front of the house does look like an error on the plan; if it were the historic route of the highway you'd expect it to continue along a similar line across nos 41 and 43. It does not look like highway in practice, and the obvious age of the postbox, telegraph pole, hedge etc means it's clearly not been used as highway for a long, long time.
Usually highway searches are a concern because they show a gap to the highway. I don't think there's any massive concern here; the local authority don't own the land (it's within your title) but I'd give them a call yourself and ask for the history if they assert that it's correct.
The triangle which runs right to the front of the house does look like an error on the plan; if it were the historic route of the highway you'd expect it to continue along a similar line across nos 41 and 43. It does not look like highway in practice, and the obvious age of the postbox, telegraph pole, hedge etc means it's clearly not been used as highway for a long, long time.
Usually highway searches are a concern because they show a gap to the highway. I don't think there's any massive concern here; the local authority don't own the land (it's within your title) but I'd give them a call yourself and ask for the history if they assert that it's correct.
Is this perhaps an historical part of the highway? Did the land registry make an error in their measurements. I am selling a piece of land at the moment where the LR documents are 1.8m out according to a topographical survey.
The LR regard this as within acceptable margin of error.
Is this the official LR Document? Can you take out an indemnity insurance?
The LR regard this as within acceptable margin of error.
Is this the official LR Document? Can you take out an indemnity insurance?
The Highway search shows adopted highyway, not ownership. Its common for highways to adopt land owned by someone else. You can get the land back with a Stopping Up Order.
I would negotiate a discount on the house and apply for a stopping up order. It should be pretty straight forward but you will need a highways consultant.
Even better make the house purchase conditional on the Stopping Up Order.
All this if you can't demonstrate an error by Highways
I would negotiate a discount on the house and apply for a stopping up order. It should be pretty straight forward but you will need a highways consultant.
Even better make the house purchase conditional on the Stopping Up Order.
All this if you can't demonstrate an error by Highways
Edited by blueg33 on Friday 20th January 10:05
Oscarmac said:
Is this perhaps an historical part of the highway?
It's not too hard to find the location from the road name and the OP's location; https://www.old-maps.co.uk shows that it does appear to have been part of the highway in the 19th and first part of the 20th century, but was enclosed by 1972 (only the 1:2,500 maps show sufficient detail).It may be possible to insure the risk of this being returned to highway use despite the local highways department having been contacted. I'd ask your solicitor to investigate this and ask the seller to pay the premium. Otherwise, you really want it to be stopped up as blueg33 suggests, but that could take a very long time.
The property used to be a pub and dates back to 1750. I suppose this land directly in front could have been where carriages pulled up. It ceased being a pub in circa 1910 reading up on the history of the place.
The title plan is the official one from the Land Registry I received from the solicitor. FWIW I also had a copy of this myself from the search service.
The vendors confirm they believe they are selling the red box (quite obviously) in the contract documents but as yet I have not made them/their solicitor aware of the highways response and subsequent discrepancy as we only received this back last night.
The title plan is the official one from the Land Registry I received from the solicitor. FWIW I also had a copy of this myself from the search service.
The vendors confirm they believe they are selling the red box (quite obviously) in the contract documents but as yet I have not made them/their solicitor aware of the highways response and subsequent discrepancy as we only received this back last night.
CharlieB said:
The property used to be a pub and dates back to 1750. I suppose this land directly in front could have been where carriages pulled up. It ceased being a pub in circa 1910 reading up on the history of the place.
The title plan is the official one from the Land Registry I received from the solicitor. FWIW I also had a copy of this myself from the search service.
The vendors confirm they believe they are selling the red box (quite obviously) in the contract documents but as yet I have not made them/their solicitor aware of the highways response and subsequent discrepancy as we only received this back last night.
Both plans are probably correct - see my reply aboveThe title plan is the official one from the Land Registry I received from the solicitor. FWIW I also had a copy of this myself from the search service.
The vendors confirm they believe they are selling the red box (quite obviously) in the contract documents but as yet I have not made them/their solicitor aware of the highways response and subsequent discrepancy as we only received this back last night.
blueg33 said:
CharlieB said:
The property used to be a pub and dates back to 1750. I suppose this land directly in front could have been where carriages pulled up. It ceased being a pub in circa 1910 reading up on the history of the place.
The title plan is the official one from the Land Registry I received from the solicitor. FWIW I also had a copy of this myself from the search service.
The vendors confirm they believe they are selling the red box (quite obviously) in the contract documents but as yet I have not made them/their solicitor aware of the highways response and subsequent discrepancy as we only received this back last night.
Both plans are probably correct - see my reply aboveThe title plan is the official one from the Land Registry I received from the solicitor. FWIW I also had a copy of this myself from the search service.
The vendors confirm they believe they are selling the red box (quite obviously) in the contract documents but as yet I have not made them/their solicitor aware of the highways response and subsequent discrepancy as we only received this back last night.
CharlieB said:
Highways believe this is their land and thus in effect, the highway goes right up to the lounge window/front door!
Looking at the plan I think that the porch has been built on the adopted highway!As an aside, if they wanted to be nasty, what would stop the highway authority putting up a few bollards thus preventing you from using your drive - a good negotiating position for them.
Just had a chat about it to a colleague. I don't think it's possible to insure. Stopping up will take some time (min 3 months, but could be into years). The current issue is the old legal maxim: once a highway, always a highway. Anyone could drive through the front and you'd be powerless to stop them.
The slightly larger issue is that the porch appears to be built on the highway, so the mortgagee may need to revalue without the porch.
I don't think this would put me off buying the property, but I would be getting full details of how to deal with stopping up before exchanging contracts, and I'd expect some concession from the seller to cover the cost and hassle.
ETA: the highway authority couldn't put up bollards - the highway status is a right of passage across the land, not a right for the highways department to use it as they see fit, close it off etc.
The slightly larger issue is that the porch appears to be built on the highway, so the mortgagee may need to revalue without the porch.
I don't think this would put me off buying the property, but I would be getting full details of how to deal with stopping up before exchanging contracts, and I'd expect some concession from the seller to cover the cost and hassle.
ETA: the highway authority couldn't put up bollards - the highway status is a right of passage across the land, not a right for the highways department to use it as they see fit, close it off etc.
TA14 said:
CharlieB said:
Highways believe this is their land and thus in effect, the highway goes right up to the lounge window/front door!
Looking at the plan I think that the porch has been built on the adopted highway!As an aside, if they wanted to be nasty, what would stop the highway authority putting up a few bollards thus preventing you from using your drive - a good negotiating position for them.
Op may need some defective title indemnity insurance if he doesn't get the highway stopped up
TA14 said:
blueg33 said:
CharlieB said:
The property used to be a pub and dates back to 1750. I suppose this land directly in front could have been where carriages pulled up. It ceased being a pub in circa 1910 reading up on the history of the place.
The title plan is the official one from the Land Registry I received from the solicitor. FWIW I also had a copy of this myself from the search service.
The vendors confirm they believe they are selling the red box (quite obviously) in the contract documents but as yet I have not made them/their solicitor aware of the highways response and subsequent discrepancy as we only received this back last night.
Both plans are probably correct - see my reply aboveThe title plan is the official one from the Land Registry I received from the solicitor. FWIW I also had a copy of this myself from the search service.
The vendors confirm they believe they are selling the red box (quite obviously) in the contract documents but as yet I have not made them/their solicitor aware of the highways response and subsequent discrepancy as we only received this back last night.
I will have to read up!
CharlieB said:
TA14 said:
blueg33 said:
CharlieB said:
The property used to be a pub and dates back to 1750. I suppose this land directly in front could have been where carriages pulled up. It ceased being a pub in circa 1910 reading up on the history of the place.
The title plan is the official one from the Land Registry I received from the solicitor. FWIW I also had a copy of this myself from the search service.
The vendors confirm they believe they are selling the red box (quite obviously) in the contract documents but as yet I have not made them/their solicitor aware of the highways response and subsequent discrepancy as we only received this back last night.
Both plans are probably correct - see my reply aboveThe title plan is the official one from the Land Registry I received from the solicitor. FWIW I also had a copy of this myself from the search service.
The vendors confirm they believe they are selling the red box (quite obviously) in the contract documents but as yet I have not made them/their solicitor aware of the highways response and subsequent discrepancy as we only received this back last night.
I will have to read up!
You also need to speak to your solicitor as it may impact on the mortgage if you have one.
Where I the UK are you? For Stopping Up I tend to use Peter Brett and Co but they are geared towards commercial clients
Hi Charlie, I don't know. Where I have been involved (in that others have done the work) stopping up has taken two to three years so that's more pessimistic than blue33.
Jobbo has some good points: not clear so take a punt if you want it and it's hard to see how the HA could use it without the right to go across the adjoining properties as well. re: bollards, can't the HA designate it a pedestrian area and put up suitable features?
Price? 5 to 10% reduction on the value of the property once this has been sorted out? Of course the discussion will centre around have they already factored this into the asking price.
Jobbo has some good points: not clear so take a punt if you want it and it's hard to see how the HA could use it without the right to go across the adjoining properties as well. re: bollards, can't the HA designate it a pedestrian area and put up suitable features?
Price? 5 to 10% reduction on the value of the property once this has been sorted out? Of course the discussion will centre around have they already factored this into the asking price.
blueg33 said:
TA14 said:
CharlieB said:
Highways believe this is their land and thus in effect, the highway goes right up to the lounge window/front door!
Looking at the plan I think that the porch has been built on the adopted highway!As an aside, if they wanted to be nasty, what would stop the highway authority putting up a few bollards thus preventing you from using your drive - a good negotiating position for them.
Op may need some defective title indemnity insurance if he doesn't get the highway stopped up
This is the house FWIW.
http://www.hamptons.co.uk/buy/property/4-bedroom-d...
I am in Stevenage at the moment. The thought of going through a lengthy legal process is a little off putting to say the least. I will relay all of the above comments to the solicitor to see if he has any bright ideas.
TA14 said:
Price? 5 to 10% reduction on the value of the property once this has been sorted out? Of course the discussion will centre around have they already factored this into the asking price.
One would have hoped that they might have mentioned this before we got to the point of exchanging! Seems they are either unaware, or a certain amount of misrepresentation is going on. Either way, the issue is now clear so the question is where I go from here. Pull out and I am a survey/solicitors fees down, and risk losing my buyer as the chain collapses.
Continue with the purchase and in the eventuality I don't get a stopping up order, the potential loss to the value of the property is clear.
All of the above has taken the wind out of the old sails a touch! Yesterday morning I was all go. Had I been a touch more gung ho on the contract signing this is something I could easily have overlooked.
ETA yes I do indeed have a mortgage.
Why did the solicitor carry out a highways search in the first place? It's not generally a standard search unless there's anything apparent on the ground which raises concerns. In your case, from the photos there's nothing of any visible concern. Chances are the previous owners didn't carry out a highways search and never knew.
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