The definitive low-energy GU10 lighting thread

[Super Slo Mo]

V8RX7 said:

Can someone tell me what E36Guy charges for his LEDs as I PM'd him a few days ago but haven't heard from him yet.

Thanks

I'll send you a quick PM.

His ZEP1's are fantastic, they give a really nice soft, diffused light that doesn't generate hard shadows like a halogen. They're brighter than a 50W halogen too in my view, and in a completely different league to the LED GU10's that I have in my utility area.

[dirty boy]

Super Slo Mo said:

V8RX7 said:

Can someone tell me what E36Guy charges for his LEDs as I PM'd him a few days ago but haven't heard from him yet.

Thanks

I'll send you a quick PM.

His ZEP1's are fantastic, they give a really nice soft, diffused light that doesn't generate hard shadows like a halogen. They're brighter than a 50W halogen too in my view, and in a completely different league to the LED GU10's that I have in my utility area.

I've got them in my lounge and i'd echo the above, they really are impressive.

[hairyben]

wsurfa said:

Thanks - looks possible - although rated at 400lm, so a bit lower than normal halogen (c500) - certainly the lowest hassle factor for installation.

Look at the ledlite items I linked to above- 550-630 lumens depending on colour chosen, massive range of accessories, easy peasy to fit and dimming as standard. I did a fair bit of research and I couldn't find a better spec'd fitting at a sensible price- to get better you'd need to be spending £80+ per fixture. Plus no-one else publishes as much independently verified performance data on their fixtures.

retro-fitted over 50 of them on one job replacing LV- 3 storey house, using all 3 colours depending on room usage, client delighted.

[anonymous-user]

hairyben said:

Look at the ledlite items I linked to above- 550-630 lumens depending on colour chosen, massive range of accessories, easy peasy to fit and dimming as standard. I did a fair bit of research and I couldn't find a better spec'd fitting at a sensible price- to get better you'd need to be spending £80+ per fixture. Plus no-one else publishes as much independently verified performance data on their fixtures.

retro-fitted over 50 of them on one job replacing LV- 3 storey house, using all 3 colours depending on room usage, client delighted.

Thanks they look good, will check them out

[OldSkoolRS]

I presume E36 can provide the low voltage (MR16?) type LED lamps as well? I put some in my downstairs shower room last year and one has packed up already, they weren't cheap either and I was pleased with them until this failure as I thought they would last longer than the old halagen ones I took out (and I'm using an LED driver too).

[Super Slo Mo]

OldSkoolRS said:

I presume E36 can provide the low voltage (MR16?) type LED lamps as well? I put some in my downstairs shower room last year and one has packed up already, they weren't cheap either and I was pleased with them until this failure as I thought they would last longer than the old halagen ones I took out (and I'm using an LED driver too).

I don't think he provides replacement bulbs as such, most of his stuff is complete units. However, ping him an email and see what he says. Just bear in mind the PH email system seems to be playing up at the moment.

[OldSkoolRS]

Thanks, I guess not really worth bothering him for one lamp, though if the others follow suit then maybe I'll need a bigger order from him.

[RichyBoy]

I just got the ones from Costco. If they go I'll get the money back then buy the same again.

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

I have just discovered a very good GU5.3 (MR16) retrofit bulb that does seem to be a pretty good direct replacement for a 50W halogen bulb. It's a Philips Master 10W, available in "Warm White" and "Very Warm White" and in a variety of beam angles. I went for the 10W warm-white 36-degree, and both in terms of brightness and colour it's virtually indistinguishable from a halogen - there's a very nice "sparkle" to the light, which is often missing from other LED bulbs.

Also, this bulb claims to have wide compatibility with existing transformers and comes with a 5-year guarantee, so Philips obviously believe they've solved any reliability or longevity issues. I've read that the bulb has a built-in fan, although it's about the same size and shape as a halogen so I'm not sure how they've managed that. I can't comment on whether you can hear the fan, because it's in my bathroom with an extractor fan.

It's a slight pity that they don't do the 60-degree version at 10W power, though they do make it in 7W. I've got one of those on order, so will be able to make a comparison soon.

My only negative comment is that perhaps it's not the prettiest bulb in the world when it's switched off, but it's not excessively intrusive.

[dtmpower]

I am ready to try to swap out many of my household's GU10 bulbs.

The first attempt was a complete failure - I lasted about a week before giving up and returning to the traditional 50p GU10 halogen bulb.

I have 2 bedrooms with a 3 x GU10 light fitting. I am also looking to replace the standard ceiling rose in the bathroom for 4 x downlighters such as : http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&am...

For the bathroom using an LED bulb, is there any requirement to remove the insulation above the fitting in the loft space ?

Can I feed 4 LED bulbs from the original ceiling rose cabling ?

These are the bulbs I am considering:

http://www.wholesaleledlights.co.uk/gu10-led/gu10-...

I want to use these in the downlighters and the ceiling fittings.

Also I like the rooms, especially the white bathroom to look brilliant white - hence looking to go for the 6000k output. Anyone able to critique my ideas ?

[200bhp]

dtmpower said:

I am ready to try to swap out many of my household's GU10 bulbs.

The first attempt was a complete failure - I lasted about a week before giving up and returning to the traditional 50p GU10 halogen bulb.

I have 2 bedrooms with a 3 x GU10 light fitting. I am also looking to replace the standard ceiling rose in the bathroom for 4 x downlighters such as : http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&am...

For the bathroom using an LED bulb, is there any requirement to remove the insulation above the fitting in the loft space ?

Can I feed 4 LED bulbs from the original ceiling rose cabling ?

These are the bulbs I am considering:

http://www.wholesaleledlights.co.uk/gu10-led/gu10-...

I want to use these in the downlighters and the ceiling fittings.

Also I like the rooms, especially the white bathroom to look brilliant white - hence looking to go for the 6000k output. Anyone able to critique my ideas ?

Insulation causes havoc with GU10 halogen bulbs and you would overheat and kill the downlight in no time at all. For an LED lamp its not such a problem although you would be forcing it to operate well above it's normal operating temperature if you left the insulation in place. Generally speaking, a GU10 bulb will run over temperature all the time when fitted to an enclosed fire rated downlight so even in the best conditions it's not really ideal.

Have you considered the integrated LED downlight? They're designed for exactly what you're doing.

There is no way, what so ever, that those SMD LED bulbs will give as much light as the halogens you have already. I wouldnt believe the figures on that website at all - The seller has presumably got the data from the manufacturer (who is not specified).

6000k from an LED is going to look very artificial. I know the look you're going for and it's best achieved with a low voltage halogen lamp! For an LED I'd be looking at 4000k maximum.

You say your first attempt was a complete failure and if you go this route the second attempt is going to go the same way IMHO.

Try looking at these instead: http://www.fastlec.co.uk/scolmore-inceptor-integra...

[dtmpower]

200bhp said:

Have you considered the integrated LED downlight? They're designed for exactly what you're doing.

6000k from an LED is going to look very artificial. I know the look you're going for and it's best achieved with a low voltage halogen lamp! For an LED I'd be looking at 4000k maximum.

You say your first attempt was a complete failure and if you go this route the second attempt is going to go the same way IMHO.

Try looking at these instead: http://www.fastlec.co.uk/scolmore-inceptor-integra...

Thanks for the info 200bhp. The integrated LED downlight looks easy to fit - I am guessing I can just cut round and leave the insulation out where they are located in the ceiling.

Will they generate the white crisp light / environment that I am familiar with ? My parents have 12v halogen downlights in their bathroom. That's exactly what I want to replicate, but if I can do it without running low voltage cabling and installing a transformer it would be easier. Plus I fear 12v halogens are a fire risk, the LED units by design must be cooler/lower power.

[200bhp]

dtmpower said:

Thanks for the info 200bhp. The integrated LED downlight looks easy to fit - I am guessing I can just cut round and leave the insulation out where they are located in the ceiling.

Will they generate the white crisp light / environment that I am familiar with ? My parents have 12v halogen downlights in their bathroom. That's exactly what I want to replicate, but if I can do it without running low voltage cabling and installing a transformer it would be easier. Plus I fear 12v halogens are a fire risk, the LED units by design must be cooler/lower power.

The sparkly effect given by 12V halogens is unique to that type of bulb - Reducing the voltage increases the frequency of the light and makes things sparkle.

You can get close to it with a good quality LED downlight but you're never going to achieve exactly the same thing.

The LED units will be very easy to fit, you can just run mains cable to each one. The advantage of the Click Inceptor units I linked to is that they have a click-in connector included which allows you to easily do the wiring then just plug the downlights in. It makes it a lot easier to remove them to decorate the ceiling at a later date as well.

Low voltage downlights normally have a transformer located about 15cm from the downlight itself. Each downlight has its own transformer. This means the mains voltage wiring will be very similar to the LED downlights.

A low voltage downlight will need a good 15cm clearance all around the back of the downlight to prevent the transformer from overheating and to prevent the fire risk you've already identified.

An LED downlight will be happier with a little breathing space (2 to 3cm) just to help it stay cool but that is not 100% essential.

[Super Slo Mo]

200bhp said:

The sparkly effect given by 12V halogens is unique to that type of bulb - Reducing the voltage increases the frequency of the light and makes things sparkle.

Really? I've never heard that before, care to explain the physics?

[200bhp]

Super Slo Mo said:

Really? I've never heard that before, care to explain the physics?

I dont know the physics because I'm not a transformer designer. However an engineer at Osram told me that is why a 12v 50W halogen lamp makes things sparkle more than a 230V 50W halogen lamp.

Low voltage lighting transformers are normally 11.6 VAC if that helps.

[Super Slo Mo]

200bhp said:

Super Slo Mo said:

Really? I've never heard that before, care to explain the physics?

I dont know the physics because I'm not a transformer designer. However an engineer at Osram told me that is why a 12v 50W halogen lamp makes things sparkle more than a 230V 50W halogen lamp.

Low voltage lighting transformers are normally 11.6 VAC if that helps.

Ok. Well, voltage has no effect on frequency as far as I know, although I will check with our electronics designers, just in case I'm wrong.

Anyway, even if it did, all that changing the frequency will achieve is a difference in colour temperature.

It might instead be the case that the frequency of the electricity passing through the filament changes, but that'll be something deliberately designed in, not as a direct result of the voltage change. I don't think that's the case though.

[hairyben]

200bhp said:

I dont know the physics because I'm not a transformer designer. However an engineer at Osram told me that is why a 12v 50W halogen lamp makes things sparkle more than a 230V 50W halogen lamp.

Low voltage lighting transformers are normally 11.6 VAC if that helps.

most 12v lamps are dichroic for the light effect, gu10 lamps are aluminum for heat distribution reasons, this accounts fir the light quality- you used to be able to get gz10s- dichroic 230v's - that were the same as dichroic 12v's in light quality.

[Mandat]

Guy, you have mail.

[200bhp]

hairyben said:

most 12v lamps are dichroic for the light effect, gu10 lamps are aluminum for heat distribution reasons, this accounts fir the light quality- you used to be able to get gz10s- dichroic 230v's - that were the same as dichroic 12v's in light quality.

That is incorrect.

The dichroic coating has only a minimal effect on the light output of the lamp. Compare a dichroic MR16 with an aluminium MR16 and you'll see what I mean.

Dichroic coatings (irrespective of lamp cap) are for heat management purposes only.

Anyway, this is getting a little off-topic!

[hairyben]

200bhp said:

That is incorrect.

The dichroic coating has only a minimal effect on the light output of the lamp. Compare a dichroic MR16 with an aluminium MR16 and you'll see what I mean.

Dichroic coatings (irrespective of lamp cap) are for heat management purposes only.

Anyway, this is getting a little off-topic!

perhaps, but I'd like to understand what you're saying because it seems to make no sense at all.

12v DC has no "frequency" as such, unlike ac. A basic filament lamp is essentially a heating element which is white-hot, and how that light is treated affects how we see it, eg different inert gasses used to encase the lamp, different filters or materials on the casing.

I can and do compare 12v dichronic/alums as I carry both on the van & fit them by the stupidillion and they're quite different. The 12v alums are far more simular to GU10 alums.